MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

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mojord
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MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mojord »

There is nothing subtle about this issue. The "GROUP EDITING" feature when in a folder track is basically useless... mainly because it is unreliable. I spend 75% of my time comping drums, and I can tell you this function "looses sync" ALL THE TIME! I consider myself a pretty good troubleshooter, and there is no sense too what makes the folder "loose sync". It is annoying, it is remarkable that no Cubase moderator has addressed the issue. Maybe there are only a very small percentage of Cubase users recording multi-tracks, so it goes to the back burner. I am going to try and go back to my "old way" of editing: i group each take as soon as I stop recording. In the end, my edits are controlled by the groups. Sad, frustrating, but all I got.
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Manike
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by Manike »

I use the group editing function. I've never had a problem losing sync unless it's through something I've done.

Are you able to reproduce losing the sync?
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mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

Same here

Very hard to nail down why. might be to do with bug on front to back ordering. I see sometimes the track that no longer obeys a cut and makes the folder out of sync wants to move behind or in front of another track. Defintely very bugged!! Need to reproduce this but not sure how yet.
Windows 10 Build 1909 , Gigabyte x58 Soc FORCE, 16gb Ddr4 RAM, Intel 5930x, Cubase 10.5, Dorico 3 UAD-2 PCIe (1 x OCTO & 1 x Quad ), Protools 12.7, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 with 32gb Slave PC.

mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

Has this been logged as an issue?
There is no reason that multitrack files with the Folder sync enabled should slip out of group sync and yet they do extremely random and very frequently.

Is there a suspend sync shortcut that I'm enabling by accident???
Windows 10 Build 1909 , Gigabyte x58 Soc FORCE, 16gb Ddr4 RAM, Intel 5930x, Cubase 10.5, Dorico 3 UAD-2 PCIe (1 x OCTO & 1 x Quad ), Protools 12.7, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 with 32gb Slave PC.

mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

mojord wrote:There is nothing subtle about this issue. The "GROUP EDITING" feature when in a folder track is basically useless... mainly because it is unreliable. I spend 75% of my time comping drums, and I can tell you this function "looses sync" ALL THE TIME! I consider myself a pretty good troubleshooter, and there is no sense too what makes the folder "loose sync". It is annoying, it is remarkable that no Cubase moderator has addressed the issue. Maybe there are only a very small percentage of Cubase users recording multi-tracks, so it goes to the back burner. I am going to try and go back to my "old way" of editing: i group each take as soon as I stop recording. In the end, my edits are controlled by the groups. Sad, frustrating, but all I got.

I can vouch the same experience. Can we have input from other users who frequently edit multitrack drums or other? I frequently edit multi drums, orchestra, guitars with multiple mics etc.... Sync gets lost extremely frequently and edits get very messed up. Reproducing it as a process is difficult.
Windows 10 Build 1909 , Gigabyte x58 Soc FORCE, 16gb Ddr4 RAM, Intel 5930x, Cubase 10.5, Dorico 3 UAD-2 PCIe (1 x OCTO & 1 x Quad ), Protools 12.7, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 with 32gb Slave PC.

OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

Same here! It happens to me virtually every time I comp drums.

This morning, I was comping 7 takes of drums using the old fashioned scissors and mute/unmute method (not the comp tool). Snap to zero crossings is off. Group editing is on.

All working perfectly for a short while, but then some of the cut events (not all of them) dropped out of sync.

I have no idea why this is. I tried turning off and on the group editing icon on the folder, and was told "items not in sync".

Maybe it's something to do with the crossfade tool buggering up the lengths(?)
Some internal rounding error maybe (there are already rounding errors in delete doubles and legato - ffs) which causes lengths to vary between tracks, thereby losing sink (?)

Another thing I've noticed is that around the time of the loss of sync, the display gets very very sluggish at high zoom levels...

Stumped :/
Studio One 3.5.1 / Cubase 6.5.5 / UAD 2 Quad / Win 7 x64 / intel i7 920 4 x 3.8GHz

mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

What version of Cubase are you on? Not that its fixed in 8.5.15 - it isn't. This problem has been there since it was introdced
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kamalski
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by kamalski »

i know the problem.
the issue is if you edit with "snap to zero crossing" active, the cut point in the audio on different tracks is going to be in different places. thats where Cubase looses the plot.
my solution:
all editing in this mode with zero-crossing OFF! as a last step do all your cross fading an fade in/outs to avoid cliks
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Manike
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by Manike »

That makes sense. Has someone reported that?
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mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

All of my multi editing is done with snap to zero turned off.... so theres something else at play
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OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

I have snap to zero crossings off at all times. I never enable it. Still goes out of sync.
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kamalski
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by kamalski »

very strange. once i discovered the snap to zero thing all my problems of loosing sync disappeared.
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OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

kamalski wrote:very strange. once i discovered the snap to zero thing all my problems of loosing sync disappeared.
How many takes do you usually have on each lane?

Maybe the bigger the number of takes = more chance of failure
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kamalski
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by kamalski »

between 3-14 tracks..........
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OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

I now have a CPR file that demos this bug in action!

https://app.box.com/s/ik7b1tnid9p2jk8cz9un99ulp4pu6qrk


In the demo project there are two tracks, "Kick" and "Snare", each with 5 lanes of takes, inside a folder track that has group editing enabled.

When you load it you will get warnings about missing files... just ignore these by closing the dialog box.

1. With the arrow tool, select the take in Kick lane 5.
2. On the menu, select "Edit > Move to > Front"
3. Select the scissors tool.
4. On the Kick track OVERVIEW LINE (not one of the lanes) make a cut with the scissors. Observe the cuts that have been made to the Kick and Snare takes.

What happens is that cuts appear on all 5 of the Kick takes, and on only one of the Snare takes.

Congratulations, your takes are now out of sync.

If you now disable and re-enable "group editing" on the drums folder track, you will be told "the tracks in this folder are no longer in sync"

Badda-bing.

Maybe someone can repro this on Cubase 8 and verify it's still there?
Studio One 3.5.1 / Cubase 6.5.5 / UAD 2 Quad / Win 7 x64 / intel i7 920 4 x 3.8GHz

leroo
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by leroo »

This project doesn't get out of sync here.
Cuts appear on all 5 of the Kick takes, and on all 5 of the Snare takes.
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OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

leroo wrote:This project doesn't get out of sync here.
Cuts appear on all 5 of the Kick takes, and on all 5 of the Snare takes.
Hmm. I get that result too, unless I first do the "Move To Front".

Well, at least I now know what to avoid doing on my system (ie. chopping the overview lane)...
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kamalski
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by kamalski »

leroo wrote:This project doesn't get out of sync here.
Cuts appear on all 5 of the Kick takes, and on all 5 of the Snare takes.
same here. syncs perfectly.
using C8.5.15
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mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

Here's the bug in action. In this video I first show files are in sync. The I make a cut on on of the lanes. Then choose the arrow tool again. Then select around the parts. You notice it's now out of sync, the cut part acting as if folder sync is off.
Then I undo, and parts are in sync again.every time I edited the top part at this stage things got out of sync

http://youtu.be/WBmx4UxdlWA
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mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

On this song there are 16 drum tracks being edited. But I've had the issue with 3 tracks (e.g. Acoustic Left, Acoustic Right, Acoustic DI)
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mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

OldFecker wrote:
leroo wrote:This project doesn't get out of sync here.
Cuts appear on all 5 of the Kick takes, and on all 5 of the Snare takes.
Hmm. I get that result too, unless I first do the "Move To Front".

Well, at least I now know what to avoid doing on my system (ie. chopping the overview lane)...
I also wonder if the bug is to do with track stack ordering getting confused. When it happens I might have the top track (I always edit the top track in a folder sync) with its edge hidden more than track 2 and all of the other tracks. I fix this by forcing the 'move to front' command. But it should not be happening
Windows 10 Build 1909 , Gigabyte x58 Soc FORCE, 16gb Ddr4 RAM, Intel 5930x, Cubase 10.5, Dorico 3 UAD-2 PCIe (1 x OCTO & 1 x Quad ), Protools 12.7, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 with 32gb Slave PC.

OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

mart wrote:I also wonder if the bug is to do with track stack ordering getting confused.
Yes indeed.

On my system, if I bring an event "to front" and then cut it, cuts will also appear on all the events "behind" it on the same track. If it is not in front, then no other cuts appear.

eg. I bring the event in lane 3 to the front, make a cut in it, and cuts will also appear in lanes 1, 2, 4 and 5. But if I cut the event in lane 5 (which is not currently at the front) then the cut appears in that event only.

While this behaviour may not be a bug in itself, it might be an indicator of something screwy going on under the hood with the stacking order...

We just need to figure out how to repro it at will, I guess...
Studio One 3.5.1 / Cubase 6.5.5 / UAD 2 Quad / Win 7 x64 / intel i7 920 4 x 3.8GHz

OldFecker
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by OldFecker »

I wonder if it's the result of a flakey "clean up lanes" ? I use this quite a bit to keep things under control.
Anyone else NOT use this function, but still have multisync issues?
Studio One 3.5.1 / Cubase 6.5.5 / UAD 2 Quad / Win 7 x64 / intel i7 920 4 x 3.8GHz

mart
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by mart »

I dont use Clean up lanes very often at all.

I have multitrack sync issues pretty much all of the time at the moment.

My work practice is to be in folder sync and only work on the first track of the folder (leaving the other lanes not visible) . In theory the other tracks should just follow along my lane selections but the track I'm working on ends up breaking sync with the other tracks below it. I def think its got to do with track ordering. Still cant recreate it with steps though
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brycem
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Re: MultiTrack SYNC ISSUES w/ Folder Sync

Post by brycem »

Yes. Definitely experienced this.

Here's what I've found:

1. Snap to zero must be OFF

2. ALL lanes in the folder must be expanded. You can't have some expanded and some collapsed (unfortunately, wastes screen real estate). Group editing will fail.
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