Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

All topics on WaveLab 8 and WaveLab Elements 8
emery
Junior Member
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:08 pm
Contact:

Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by emery »

Hi PG,

I was always using VST2.4 version of this plugin, but tried VST3 and it gives strange results, the rendered file becomes much louder and settings are not saved on VBC. Loading them up brings VBC in its initial state.

Is this a but from Slate VST3 plugin or something in WL8? I use all latest versions.

Cheers
Denis
www.Mastering.Lt

Hackintosh I7-7700K, Prism Sound Orpheus, Nuendo 8.1.10 , WL 8.5.20 , Acustica Audio, UAD2 Octo

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

WaveLab does not know what happens inside the plugin. Please report to the plugin manufacturer.
Philippe

StudioCompyfox
Junior Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by StudioCompyfox »

I can't offer a solution, but I can tell at least what is happening.

The OP describes the, what is currently known as, so called "Audio Forward Bug". This is happening in WL7 and WL8. I can't check if it's the case in WL6 as well - don't have it installed on my rig anymore.

What is happening, is that the audio stream is processed in realtime with the VST3 version, but while rendering, nothing happens. Slate Digital is just as puzzled as I am as user. The VST3 versions work fine in Cubendo and S1 in terms of rendering, but not in WL. Forcing WL into "run as admin" (as it is needed for IK Multimedia Plugins) didn't solve this issue either.

Slate Digital and I had the impression, that it got something to do with the iLok routines. But the same issue popped up with plugins by Klanghelm - and that company doesn't use copy protection schemes.

So yes... Unfortunately, Slate Digital aren't the only people suffering from that strange bug, that nobody can explain so far. Eiosis and Klanghelm joined the ride. These companies are already in touch with the VST SDK team, but currently, there is no suitable solution.


Regarding the GUI recall issues - this is also already known to Slate Digital, and they are working on it. Actually a current software update should fix this, but unfortunately not the "Audio Forward Bug".
Win7 64bit SP1/Convenience Rollup on Intel Core i7 920, 3,6GHz | Cubase 10.0.20 | Wavelab 9.1.x
Steinberg user since mid 1990s

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

When wavelab renders, it uses a new instance of the plugin, and copies the plugin parameters from the playback plugin instance to the new plugin instance. If the parameter copy function has a bug in the plugin, one could imagine the problem you describe.
Philippe

StudioCompyfox
Junior Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by StudioCompyfox »

Hm... this would clear why the IKM Plugins jump from "full version" to "demo mode" on rendering if WL is not run as admin. I'll definitely foward that to the devs. Thanks.


But is there a reason to use "new instances" rather than the existing ones?
Win7 64bit SP1/Convenience Rollup on Intel Core i7 920, 3,6GHz | Cubase 10.0.20 | Wavelab 9.1.x
Steinberg user since mid 1990s

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

Wavelab is multitasking: you can playback while rendering happens. Hence different plugin instances need to be used.
Philippe

StudioCompyfox
Junior Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by StudioCompyfox »

That makes sense.


Still - it doesn't clear why "cloning" of VST3 plugins in Cubendo and S1 works, and they do render fine. But not for Wavelab.

Either way, thanks for the input, Philippe. I forwarded this to the affected developers. Maybe they can work with this bit of information.
Win7 64bit SP1/Convenience Rollup on Intel Core i7 920, 3,6GHz | Cubase 10.0.20 | Wavelab 9.1.x
Steinberg user since mid 1990s

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

Not sure that plugins are cloned in Cubendo.
Philippe

StudioCompyfox
Junior Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by StudioCompyfox »

Cloned/copied with ALT+Mousedrag from Insert Slot to Insert Slot... and it keeps the settings from the copied VST plugin. Don't know why this is happening in WL either (the bug that is). But I hope the devs can now make some sense out of it.

Again, thanks for the input.
Win7 64bit SP1/Convenience Rollup on Intel Core i7 920, 3,6GHz | Cubase 10.0.20 | Wavelab 9.1.x
Steinberg user since mid 1990s

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

My plugin has the same bug in WL: render does not work.

Debugging into my code shows that the problem is that wl does not call the "setstate" method of the controller, it just does call the "setstate" of the component. This is strange, because for this new plugin instance (that is used for rendering) to work correctly it should have a controller and a processing component that are in sync. Also, the vst3 doc states that when the host sets a new processor state this state is always transmitted to the controller as well (by using setComponentstate) but this is not the case in wl.
I hope that people at steinberg will fix this soon.

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

Debugging into my code shows that the problem is that wl does not call the "setstate" method of the controller, it just does call the "setstate" of the component. This is strange, because for this new plugin instance (that is used for rendering) to work correctly it should have a controller and a processing component that are in sync. Also, the vst3 doc states that when the host sets a new processor state this state is always transmitted to the controller as well (by using setComponentstate) but this is not the case in wl.
You make a false assumption: WaveLab does not (need to) instantiate a controller when rendering, as there is no GUI. Look at this note from the VST-3 SDK:

A host does not need to instantiate the Controller part of a Plug-in for processing it. The Plug-in should be prepared for processing without having the controller part instantiated


Your plugin should be prepared to this scenario.
Philippe

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

So setstate is not called on my controller because wl thinks there is no controller. but there is one, because my component is a single component effect. so its both a controller and a processor because when creating a processor a controller is also created. As stated in the doc, the host can detect with "if (processorComponent->queryInterface (Vst::IEditController::iid, (void**)&editController) != kResultTrue)" that tells if the processor is also a controller or not.
So in this case wl should call setcomponentstate on the controller after setstate on the component. I think vst3 plugins always expects that to be called.
Thanks for the answer

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

You don't understand the concept: in VST-3, there is a full separation between processing and UI (this is a modern architecture, btw). This is why the SDK says:
A host does not need to instantiate the Controller part of a Plug-in for processing it. The Plug-in should be prepared for processing without having the controller part instantiated
This is not about (to quote you):
wl thinks there is no controller
this is about: "wl only does processing hence does not create any UI related module"
Philippe

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

I have understood this but I think you did not understand my last post. please allow me to explain myself better. since wavelab does not need a controller it creates onyl a processor, I think we agree on that. But, if the plugin is a "single component plugin" (in the sdk doc they say
"Plug-ins which did not succeed to separate component from controller"
), then it means that the plugin's controller class and processor class is the same, so when wavelab creates a processor, it also creates a controller, since they are both the same class. Even if it does not need it.
So I think that when doing setstate in the processor, every vst3 host should check if there is a controller with the code snippet from the sdk that I posted in my last post, even if it chose not to instanciate any controller. If it appears that there is a controller it should at least call setcomponentstate to keep things in order and well syncrhonized.

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

The SDK snippet you mention is "for Plug-ins which did not succeed to separate component from controller "... as the sentence implies, this is not the good behaviour. WaveLab does not support this case. Since there is no way to know if a controller is needed, WaveLab would need to do it for all plugins, only to support plugins with the bad approach. Not good. This eats ressources.
Philippe

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

Not good maybe but 100% compliant with the vst3 spec. Moreover this behavior is very necessary for plugins with strong link between GUI and process like an fft realtime analyzer. Many vst3 plugins from many companies behave like this. If wavelab chooses not to support them, I think it would be better to detect it at instanciation (and prevent instanciation or display a warning) instead of allowing them to instanciate but then taking the risk that some features do not work. this is bad for the reputation of both the plugin and wavelab.

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

I don't know how to detect this. Any idea?
Philippe

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

After the creation of the processor, you can ask to the vst-ma system if the created object is also a controller, like this:
Vst::IEditController* controller;
processor->queryInterface(Vst::IEditController::iid, (void**)&controller)
If it returns true it means that the processor is also a controller so the plugin is a "single component effect". Otherwise it is a vst3 distributable plugin.
Also, there is a flag called Steinberg::Vst::kDistributable that is documented in the "basic conception" chapter of the sdk doc, but I don't know how to read it from the host.

PG
Moderator
Posts: 7909
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by PG »

I'll see what I can do in next WaveLab update.
What is your plugin, so that I can test it?
Philippe

plugdev
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:20 am
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by plugdev »

Thank you. my plugin is still in development and I would like not to diffuse it for now, but there are a lot of "single component" plugins around. I will find them and tell you which they are. also in the vst3 sdk samples there is a project called "againsimple" which is a "single component effect". you can build it and see.

StudioCompyfox
Junior Member
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by StudioCompyfox »

It's like to bump this one again.

The so called "Audio Forward Bug" should be known to the Steinberg development teams. Adressed by Klanghelm and Slate Digital/Eiosis respectively. All three development teams stick to the VST3 specifications.


So far, the bug could not be fixed on the developer side. And they did try a lot - in case of Slate Digital, this issue is going back to their VTM release in 2012. As Slate user, I got the info, that this might be a severe Wavelab bug. Especially since VST3 rendering in Cubase 6 and 7 is working fine.

What's happening (currently), is that the plugins do work in realtime. But after rendering in WL (no matter which SRC!), the settings are being ignored (i.e. Compressor settings). The only thing that is happening, is some sort of slight volume and phase shift. So the signal can't be nulled anymore. Which confirms, that "something" is happening - it's just that the major settings are being ignored, and the signal is not being processed.

The VST2 versions render fine in WL. But it is a hassle to have both the VST2 and the VST3 version installed, maybe even 32bit and 64bit versions. Again, no issues in Cubase (VST3), and fellow engineers also reported no issues in Studio One (VST3).



Will this finally be adressed in WL8.04 or WL8.5?
Especially now, since the VST2.x SDK was dropped.
Win7 64bit SP1/Convenience Rollup on Intel Core i7 920, 3,6GHz | Cubase 10.0.20 | Wavelab 9.1.x
Steinberg user since mid 1990s

User avatar
Fly Studio
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 8:28 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by Fly Studio »

So far, the bug could not be fixed on the developer side. And they did try a lot - in case of Slate Digital, this issue is going back to their VTM release in 2012. As Slate user, I got the info, that this might be a severe Wavelab bug. Especially since VST3 rendering in Cubase 6 and 7 is working fine.
Hmm, are you sure the VST3 VTM is still not rendering? I just used it on several clips in a montage and it seemed to work.
On the other hand, the VST3 VBC has several problems: metering will fail but processing will continue, or both will fail on render.
Slate told me something similar regarding the 'threading model' of Steinberg products. I don't know all the coding details you guys talked about; it's enough to keep up with the work. ;)
  • G
    Cubase 9.5 8.5 7.5 6.5 - Wavelab 9.5 8.5 6 - Halion 6 3
    RME Demeter Hamptone ST MicPre modded by Jim Williams UA-6176
    i7-3770k - Asus Z77 V-Pro - Win 7 Pro SP1 64 bit - 16GB GSkill DDR3 Dram - UAD-2 (6 cores)
    bx DMG Elysia Eventide iZotope Lexicon Overloud PSP Slate Softube Soundtoys SPL UAD Voxengo Waves
    8DIO AAS Arturia EastWest ChrisHein NI Synthology EduardoTarilonte Slate Drums Synthmaster Toontrack UVI VSL

User avatar
Justin P
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:49 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by Justin P »

I finally got on board with Slate plug-ins after discovering how great Trigger 2 is for the small amount of mixing I do now and then. The VBC bundle is only $99 right and seemed like a steal based on what I've read and how great the Trigger 2 is.

Anyway, is VBC not safe to use in Wavelab 8? If so, are both VST 2 and VST 3 buggy? Wavelab is where I'd primarily use VBC so I'm hoping I can use it sooner or later, ether in WL 8.5 or when the next VBC update is released.

I had forgotten about this thread before purchasing it.
https://www.mysteryroommastering.com/https://www.justincarlperkins.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WaveLab/

iMac Pro 3.0GHz 10-Core • 64GB RAM • SSD for OS and audio • MacOS 10.14.6
Mac Mini 3.2 GHz Intel Core i7 (6-Core) • 32GB RAM • SSD for OS and audio • MacOS 10.14.6

RME AES HDSPe, MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock USB, Grace m905, Grace m900

User avatar
Fly Studio
New Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 8:28 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by Fly Studio »

It is currently buggy, but I did get it to work. But reliability is important for the current competative mastering business and I hope Steinberg & Slate get together and work this out. It seems odd that a plug-in developer would make a VST3 plug-in, a format created by Steinberg, and code it in a way that causes problems in a Steinberg product.
  • G
    Cubase 9.5 8.5 7.5 6.5 - Wavelab 9.5 8.5 6 - Halion 6 3
    RME Demeter Hamptone ST MicPre modded by Jim Williams UA-6176
    i7-3770k - Asus Z77 V-Pro - Win 7 Pro SP1 64 bit - 16GB GSkill DDR3 Dram - UAD-2 (6 cores)
    bx DMG Elysia Eventide iZotope Lexicon Overloud PSP Slate Softube Soundtoys SPL UAD Voxengo Waves
    8DIO AAS Arturia EastWest ChrisHein NI Synthology EduardoTarilonte Slate Drums Synthmaster Toontrack UVI VSL

User avatar
Justin P
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:49 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Contact:

Re: Slate Digital VBC VST3 bug

Post by Justin P »

This is unfortunate, everything I've read about Slate indicates they're not quick about releasing updates.
https://www.mysteryroommastering.com/https://www.justincarlperkins.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WaveLab/

iMac Pro 3.0GHz 10-Core • 64GB RAM • SSD for OS and audio • MacOS 10.14.6
Mac Mini 3.2 GHz Intel Core i7 (6-Core) • 32GB RAM • SSD for OS and audio • MacOS 10.14.6

RME AES HDSPe, MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock USB, Grace m905, Grace m900

Post Reply

Return to “WaveLab 8 | WaveLab Elements 8”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests