Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

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lycalp
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Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

Hello

Is there any way that Dorico could PLAY the correct sequence of A - B - A - C - A - D - A - Coda?

Thank you for your help!

Best wishes!
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

How is it written out for the performer? In theory, if there's a repeat structure that makes that progression clear to the performer, it will work in Dorico too.

If, however, you expect the performer to know by convention rather than by explicitly notating it, then I'm afraid there's no way to set an arbitrary playback order for bars in the software at present.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

Thank you for your answer! In Sibelius there is the feature to create a Playback order: (s. Picture)
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by njfreestone »

...and Daniel has confirmed in his reply to you that there is not presently an equivalent feature in Dorico.
Nicholas Freestone, Assistant Director of Music, Worcester Cathedral, UK. Currently using Dorico 3.5.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

...What a pity! It would be great to include this feature in Dorico as quick as possible. After all, it's the aim to establish Dorico as the "best notation software" on the market...
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by benwiggy »

I'd be interested to know how you notate the 'skip' from the end of A for the 2nd and 3rd time to C and D respectively. Presumably you'd have to have 2nd and 3rd time bars with Dal Segnos? Or would you use "To Coda", making C and D Codas too?
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

This could be done easily enough with just repeat endings.
Of course one might have very extended Ending Lines.

Image
ABACADAE.png
(10.16 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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ABACADACoda.zip
(478.88 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by pat_ »

I think B C and D are going to be entire themes here, not just a few measures!

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

Of course.That's why I said the repeat ending lines may be long, although that might be configurable.
https://steinberg.help/dorico_pro/v2/en ... ave%2Cmode
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Rob Tuley »

Derrek, that only affects the length of the final segment - i.e. the one over the coda, in the earlier screenshot.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by ChuckDimeCliff »

I mean you could but the repeat structure wouldn't be the easiest thing to follow. Usually rondos are just written out to avoid turning multiple pages at once and to avoid any confusion with multiple codas and several large jumps between sections.
https://i.imgur.com/TTRUrre.png

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

I seldom use repeats for structure, preferring to write out the repeated material (especially since it lets me add to the scoring or ornamentation) although those dealing with historic music may have different needs.
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by spencered »

lycalp wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:50 am
...What a pity! It would be great to include this feature in Dorico as quick as possible. After all, it's the aim to establish Dorico as the "best notation software" on the market...
I absolutely agree. This is a deal breaker for me. Sibelius has it, and I can't do my work without it. I score a lot of chôro music, at least half of which is in some variation of ABACA form. Without multiple symbols in addition to the crosshairs symbol to denoting where to jump next, you can't produce a workable playback. I came looking to Dorico for some fresh ideas and now I leave disappointed. I was going to do a crossgrade from Sibelius when my subscription period is up, but I guess not.
I can't post an image of a copyrighted score, but I can refer interested readers to scribd.com for the book "Chôro Songbook no. 1" (or 2 or 3) by Almir Chediak. The elegant solution to this notation problem is exemplified throughout this series.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Welcome to the forum, spencered. I believe I found the Chediak book on the Internet Archive here, and after a quick flick through the first 20-30 pages, I can't see anything that Dorico can't handle notationally. Can you say a bit more about the problems you've had trying to reproduce this notation in your own projects?

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

Hello Daniel

Thanks for looking into our problem!

For me, the problem is to PLAYBACK correctly a sequence of e.g. ABACADAE...

If I am informed correctly, Dorico 3.1.10 is not yet able to playback sequences correctly...?

As in my first message, Sibelius IS able to do this!

(see attached jpg: 20190814 PLAYBACK playback of sequences)

Dorico should definitely be able to provide that...

I'm glad to hear your feedback...

P.S. I'm an enthusiastic Dorico fan!!! :D

Best regards

Guido Bissig
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20190814 PLAYBACK Wiedergabe von Abläufen.jpg
(241.71 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

Is this what you say Dorico cannot do?
ABACADAexample.zip
(402.86 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
(You can set the ending markers and lines to "Custom Size" 1 pt in the properties panel and then add your own directions via SHIFT+X or SHIFT+ALT+X Text if you wish.)
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

Hello Derrek

Thank you very much for your file! It works! Great!!

Now the only missing feature is the possibility to arrange a playback sequence individually. E.g. bar 1-5 + bar 20-30, so that you can export this playback sequence e.g. as audio...

You should also be able to see an overview bar where the playback is currently located in the OVERALL sequence (incl. repetitions), so that you can navigate there directly...

Or is this possibility (as it is in Sibelius) also available in Dorico 3 and I missed it...?

Thank you for taking time!

Best wishes!

GB
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

I'm afraid I do not know what you are asking.

-- "arrange a playback sequence individually" ?
-- "see an overview bar" ?
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

He's asking for the equivalent of the feature in Sibelius that allows you to determine explicitly the order in which the bars in the flow should be played back; see post #3 in this thread.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

Since my German is not the equal of lycalp's English, does this mean that individual players can play in different order or is it merely an easier way to set up a rondo-like structure for the ensemble?

I'm guessing my solution would work to play the rondo structure presented, just not be as simple to implement as the SIbelius routine. Is that a fair statement?
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

I think the nub of the issue is that GB doesn't want to change anything about the way the music is notated in order to obtain the desired playback.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by lycalp »

Dear Daniel! That's exactly the point.

It's just a PLAYBACK problem. Not a notation problem...

It should be possible to play any bar (or section) at any time and in any combination… Isn't it?

Please find in the Attachement a jpg. to explain a little bit better…

It's not possible to do this feature at the moment in Dorico, isn't it?

Thank you for your answer and best wishes!

Guido Bissig
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20200430 Timeline (Sibelius).jpg
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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

That's correct, it's not currently possible in Dorico.

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Re: Need help with proper placement of DS Al Fine, Coda, etc.. in order to play in ABACADA Coda (Rondo form)

Post by Derrek »

@lycalp,

Thank you for the illustration. That's very interesting.
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