The new standard in audio to pocture work...

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Oliver.Lucas
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The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

...does not support mxf.
...needs a separate license for dnxhd, that the old nuendo could handle just fine and that license is not available after a development phase of years?

Are you kidding?
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Heiner Einbier »

Yeah, sort of a cold bucket for me too...
To be fair though, they did say they're implementing MXF down the line, and I personally believe them. FWIW, ProTools can't handle MXF in it's OP1a flavor either, plus it has no way of atomizing it, this from the company who brought you MXF in the first place and where stuff like that works a treat in their Media Composer software. I'd be totally *quiz* off about that if I was a PT user.
As to the DNXHD codec, that was free for Quicktime, which is dead. It was probably AVID that demanded license fees for their codec from Steinberg, and thus from us. Which is typical for them. I blame AVID 100% for this.
I'm gonna get N8 sometime, just to keep my update cycle, but I hope the future will bring more new stuff for picture work again (as, e.g. MXF...) Not so much into gaming myself, but I understand their rationale in going that path as well.
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

Heiner Einbier wrote:Yeah, sort of a cold bucket for me too...
To be fair though, they did say they're implementing MXF down the line, and I personally believe them. FWIW, ProTools can't handle MXF in it's OP1a flavor either, plus it has no way of atomizing it, this from the company who brought you MXF in the first place and where stuff like that works a treat in their Media Composer software. I'd be totally *quiz* off about that if I was a PT user.
As to the DNXHD codec, that was free for Quicktime, which is dead. It was probably AVID that demanded license fees for their codec from Steinberg, and thus from us. Which is typical for them. I blame AVID 100% for this.
I'm gonna get N8 sometime, just to keep my update cycle, but I hope the future will bring more new stuff for picture work again (as, e.g. MXF...) Not so much into gaming myself, but I understand their rationale in going that path as well.
Heiner, typical great post, that sees both sides. Very much apprechiated.
And you are right, of course, they will eventually get there.
At the moment I am quite disappointed, though in a release that is at best in beta stage.
We lose HD video out on some configs, iZotope connect and gain new AAF problems.

I was looking forward to buying a new machine to replace my 7 year old Mac and I was hoping for a N8 release that works and will let me go ahead and have everything tested and installed when the next big wave of work hits the studio. Now I will have to postpone this idea to next year because N8 did not make it in time for me.

In the end I am positive that the will eventually get there. Still the amount of showstopper bugs for audio post baffels me.
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Not getting into politics, just an observation which I simply can't get my head around.

With every new release, we always see these "will not be upgrading" comments.
The only logic I can find is that the user kinda wants to publicly "punish" Steinberg for not delivering what the user expected of the upgrade. As far as I can see there is nothing to gain from not upgrading. On the contrary.

Pricing will not change, it doesn't get cheaper by delaying the upgrade.
Nobody prevents you from using N7, while having N8 on your computer "to play with".
No chance to get familiar with the new features, even if you don't use it for commercial projects.
When you eventually do upgrade, the catching up and learning curve will be much steeper.
You really want to get into this once the next big wave of work hits the studio? I would want to be "ready" for that big wave. You also can't anticipate to & research your hardware upgrade. (For example, there's always a chance that the HD video is a hardware isue.)
And so on, and so on ... I see nothing but inconveniences.

And what's more, your opinion about N8 is entirely based on what you read here on the forums.
In a way, you are focussing on everything that is wrong or broken, and ignoring all of the good stuff and improvements.
You are convinced that the bugs are showstoppers for you, and that the features are useless to you.
It might be the other way around, you simply can't know.

Again, I am not judging or attacking you.
I simply can't understand the logic behind it.

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Heiner Einbier
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Heiner Einbier »

Sorry, Fredo - I did state quite clearly that I would be upgrading, and was just clarifying that MXF video implementation seems to be a challenge, especially if Steinberg is equally busy developing for games functionality, which I fully understand, even if I'll personally never need it.
I have every confidence that MXF will come. And I hope to see them beat AVID to having the first DAW that can natively play back (and maybe even encode...?) MXF OP1a. I'll raise quite a few glasses to Steiny if they pull that off... :D
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Heiner Einbier »

BTW - Anyone know where I can purchase the DNXHD codecs? I can't seem to find it in the online shop. Cant use my new N8 if it can't play back DNXHD...
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Heiner,

Sorry, for the confusion.
My comment is aimed at Oliver, who said that he won't be upgrading until the listed issues are solved.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Heiner Einbier »

Ah, OK. But I do understand why he's a bit put out... ;)
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Heiner Einbier wrote:BTW - Anyone know where I can purchase the DNXHD codecs? I can't seem to find it in the online shop. Cant use my new N8 if it can't play back DNXHD...
Will come next week or so. Shortly anyway.
It will be a separate installer that needs to be purchased through the webshop.
And yes, this is imposed by Avid. We had the DnxHD codec build-in in the beta-versions, but Steinberg was not allowed to release that version. Thereby the (paid) separate installer.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Stagis Sound »

Fredo wrote:Not getting into politics, just an observation which I simply can't get my head around.

With every new release, we always see these "will not be upgrading" comments.
The only logic I can find is that the user kinda wants to publicly "punish" Steinberg for not delivering what the user expected of the upgrade. As far as I can see there is nothing to gain from not upgrading. On the contrary.

Pricing will not change, it doesn't get cheaper by delaying the upgrade.
Nobody prevents you from using N7, while having N8 on your computer "to play with".
No chance to get familiar with the new features, even if you don't use it for commercial projects.
When you eventually do upgrade, the catching up and learning curve will be much steeper.
You really want to get into this once the next big wave of work hits the studio? I would want to be "ready" for that big wave. You also can't anticipate to & research your hardware upgrade. (For example, there's always a chance that the HD video is a hardware isue.)
And so on, and so on ... I see nothing but inconveniences.

And what's more, your opinion about N8 is entirely based on what you read here on the forums.
In a way, you are focussing on everything that is wrong or broken, and ignoring all of the good stuff and improvements.
You are convinced that the bugs are showstoppers for you, and that the features are useless to you.
It might be the other way around, you simply can't know.

Again, I am not judging or attacking you.
I simply can't understand the logic behind it.

Best regards
Fredo
Hi Fredo,

I do see a lot of your point on this - I myself upgraded right away and I believe that the bugs there is now, will be fixed in further upgrades (they better do!). As of now, I only use N8 to play with and get my head around the new features etc. and my trusty N7 to take care of my jobs. Thats is (for me) a part of being a professional and preparing for the future.
BUT! I also do understand people, who will not pay for an upgrade (to simply just upgrade). It is maybe not that expensive to buy a new upgrade, but is is somewhat time consuming to "play" with a software with bugs. For some peolpe living as audio professionals it is sometimes just better for them to wait for the demo, try it out and then prepare to buy it. Everyone has different priorities and yes, people do get an initial view of missing features and bugs through the forum.

I have to call you out on one thing:

"In a way, you are focussing on everything that is wrong or broken, and ignoring all of the good stuff and improvements.
You are convinced that the bugs are showstoppers for you, and that the features are useless to you.
It might be the other way around, you simply can't know."

N8 (as of now) has some really big showstoppers in the bugs department (am I going to mention one of them being the direct offline processing not working with RX6? - Yes I am!). I know for a fact, that bugs can be a real showstopper, when it comes to professional work (and if it is bugs, that renders previous features somewhat useless, that is even more not acceptable). We as consumers have a right (and for the developers sake) a duty to report and talk about what is broken (the "wrong" part is a matter of opinion) - therefore it has a focus and we can simply know, that it can be showstoppers. I do (with empathy) understand the frustration with developers being overrun with bug-reports and customers swearing off to buy the product. You just want to do a good job at making great software everyone wants to buy. As a consumer I am however a bit cynical and can only state, that a company should test their software even more so, before a release. As a costumer and a professional I rather take a stable update with less features, than a feature-bloated update with a lot og bugs. It is an inconvenience for a professional customer, to buy a professional software, they cannot use to its full potential.

Speaking of features, I think it is just nice to have all the new great stuff, and Steinberg are really great at providing them (I myself love the randomizer - fantastic and really useful!) . I personally just wish, that Steinberg would sometimes take a look at a competitor like Pro tools, and say "We can do that as well - and even better!", when it comes to the post production features. If Steinberg has to compete in that market, they have to beat Avid on key features (shall we say -Audio recorder workflow? ;) ). I do have high hopes for Nuendo to one day be as succesfull as Pro Tools - it is on many levels a much better software. The only way to do this is to really listen to the consumers, take direction and provide something stable, that can be the best alternative to the competitors.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Heiner Einbier wrote:Ah, OK. But I do understand why he's a bit put out... ;)
Yes, I understand Oliver too.
But if you approach the problem rationally, then it doesn't make sense.
Not to me anyway ...

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

Thanks for your views and input Fredo.

I have a copy of N8 and it is completely useless to me, a total wast of time.

The video HD thing was reported by me and two other independent users have the same issue. Also I have tested on different systems. Rx6 connect issues have been tested and confirmed here. AAF has been tested and confirmed here.

Yes I am focussing on the bad stuff but in all honesty: new AAF errors, no video output, the most used compression standard in the industry gone, the industry standard in dialog editing not working anymore...

Seriously, from an audio post daw tailored to the pro market, I expect a LOT more than this bug ridden piece of junk, sorry. I accept your different views, but I want a release that works, not some beta to play around with.
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Stagis Sound wrote: I have to call you out on one thing:

N8 (as of now) has some really big showstoppers in the bugs department (am I going to mention one of them being the direct offline processing not working with RX6? - Yes I am!)
Allow me to slightly disagree.
RX offline processing works just fine. It's the *Connect* feature which is not working properly.
Here, at my own company, I ask my people to not do the processing within RX itself, because the offline process is not part of the Nuendo history. In other words, you can't change modify or remove any of the processes you've done in the RX standalone application. And *when* it needs to be done in the editor, then we always do it on a backup/duplicated file. But if someone's workflow is totaly based upon the RX standalone applciation ... I understand. But apparently N7 still works fine for that.

As for workarounds, there is no bug that ever stopped me from working. In fact, dealing with a problem within a DAW is no different than dealing with a problem within an audio file. You make it work. No matter what.
(shall we say -Audio recorder workflow? ;)
So PT wasn't a pro application before it had the field recorder workflow?
How on earth did people did these things then?

I'd say that reconform is at least equally important as the field recorded workflow.
And Control Room, Batch export, ADR functionality, csv/marker import/export, renaming and many other features.
It's all perspective.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

Oliver,

I misread you.
Your "I'll have to postpone this" made me think that you would postpone the purchase of N8.
So you can ignore my "your opinion is based on what you've read on the forums"-comment.
My bad.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Stagis Sound »

Allow me to slightly disagree.
RX offline processing works just fine. It's the *Connect* feature which is not working properly.
Here, at my own company, I ask my people to not do the processing within RX itself, because the offline process is not part of the Nuendo history. In other words, you can't change modify or remove any of the processes you've done in the RX standalone application. And *when* it needs to be done in the editor, then we always do it on a backup/duplicated file. But if someone's workflow is totaly based upon the RX standalone applciation ... I understand. But apparently N7 still works fine for that.
There are certain spectral problem-solving you cannot do with the plugins and without the connect feature. Also it works fine in N7 yes - NOT in N8.
As for workarounds, there is no bug that ever stopped me from working. In fact, dealing with a problem within a DAW is no different than dealing with a problem within an audio file. You make it work. No matter what.
Me too. But it does not still justify for updates with buggy features previously working in other versions (Like AFF-import problems) - I am just stating this, not a counterpoint to workarounds. I am also gonna provide AAFs for problem solving in the future.
So PT wasn't a pro application before it had the field recorder workflow?
How on earth did people did these things then?
Yes it was, but it is other times now. I hear from editors on a regular basis asking me, why I cannot do it like pro tools users in Nuendo (and I (have to) use Pro tools to satisfy them, (or god forbid, something like TITAN)).
If you read my post I have not discredited Nuendo Steinberg for not being professional - I just think that ignoring the competition on certain (now) somewhat standard features in the business, is not a smart move. I am glad, that Steinberg is taking care of this feature in an upcoming release.
I don't want Nuendo to be Pro Tools - far from it. I actually want to quit Pro Tools altogether. I just cannot do it yet because of things like the field recorder workflow. I have to match the demand of my customers. That is what I want to do (and do it fast without tedious workarounds).
I'd say that reconform is at least equally important as the field recorded workflow.
And Control Room, Batch export, ADR functionality, csv/marker import/export, renaming and many other features.
It's all perspective.
Yes I agree. Reconform is actually a feature, that has been a jaw dropping one for editors and directors I have worked with and it has certainly raised the bar in the post production. All the features you mention are important and I am so glad, that I have chosen a platform, that has these features and so much more.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

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Stagis Sound wrote:....asking me, why I cannot do it like pro tools users in Nuendo (and I (have to) use Pro tools to satisfy them, (or god forbid, something like TITAN)).
Well, I have done a gazillion things in other applications than Nuendo, just for the sake of getting things done.
I have a whole stack of things like Virtual Katy, AA Translator, Revoice, XMediaRecode, etc..., and I never had to explain or justify to anyone how I got my stuff done. I paid big money for it, only because it made me money.
Why is it that a feature, once it is build in into a DAW (although it exists as an external tool) suddenly becomes a dealbreaking missing feature?
Sure, having it integrated offers a lot of advantages, I can't argue with that.
But -I think- the crux of the matter is that others (see PT) have something for free that we also would like to have at no cost. The matter of fact is that "others" are using the same arguments for the features Nuendo has, and their DAW doesn't. And when we will finaly get Field Recorder workflow, there will be something else that makes the update fail as being "the next standard".

For the record.
I am not argueing or being defensive.
Just ventilating my view on things.

Fredo

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by MattiasNYC »

Well why is it that when others are ventilating their personal views on things it's all of a sudden "politics" or wanting to "publicly punish Steinberg"?.... And how come you never make the same statement about people engaging in politics if the comments are positive?

If someone says "Hey, N8 is great - Get it now!", then nobody cares, but if someone says "hey, N8 doesn't seem worth it right now - I'm skipping it." people's opinions are all of a sudden a bad thing?
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Stagis Sound »

Well, I have done a gazillion things in other applications than Nuendo, just for the sake of getting things done.
I have a whole stack of things like Virtual Katy, AA Translator, Revoice, XMediaRecode, etc..., and I never had to explain or justify to anyone how I got my stuff done. I paid big money for it, only because it made me money.
Why is it that a feature, once it is build in into a DAW (although it exists as an external tool) suddenly becomes a dealbreaking missing feature?
Well, that is fine with all those application (I know them), but the matter of the fact is, that your biggest competitor already offers an integrated solution that works - for some people it can be the dealbreaker in terms of collaboration with certain editors and directors - shallow as it is.
Sure, having it integrated offers a lot of advantages, I can't argue with that.
Right about that.
But -I think- the crux of the matter is that others (see PT) have something for free that we also would like to have at no cost.


I don't know where you got the "no cost" bit from. I (and probably other Nuendo users as well) would gladly pay for an update with the field recorder workflow - it would make my life and collaboration with a lot of people so much easier.
The matter of fact is that "others" are using the same arguments for the features Nuendo has, and their DAW doesn't. And when we will finally get Field Recorder workflow, there will be something else that makes the update fail as being "the next standard".


Steinberg has claimed Nuendo 8 to be "the new standard in audio to picture work" . We as customers did not say this - Steinberg did. When Steinberg has such a claim, we as customers do compare Nuendo 8 to the (sad but true) standard of the audio to picture work which is (you guessed it) Pro Tools. We as customers then point out what you guys are missing out on in the feature department, when we compare it to "THE STANDARD" in the post production world.
When Steinberg comes forward with a statement as above, they sure as hell are going to take some punches for it in the request department, if they are missing out on certain features other competitors/the standard in the field has.

It is however only a few features Nuendo 8 is missing out on, for it to kick Pro Tools of the podium.
I myself have talked to a lot of Pro tools HD users about how awesome Nuendo is and the field recorder workflow is almost the main thing, that is always brought up as a feature they would not like to miss out on and the main reason not to make the switch to Nuendo. The sad thing is, that it is regardless of the other great features build into Nuendo, that will make their life so much easier.

For the record.
I am not argueing or being defensive.
Just ventilating my view on things.
Same thing here. I am mostly giving my views here as a professional Nuendo user in an Avid dominated field. That is why I offer my insights to you, like other users in this forum - so Steinberg can make Nuendo even a greater!

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

MattiasNYC wrote:Well why is it that when others are ventilating their personal views on things it's all of a sudden "politics" or wanting to "publicly punish Steinberg"?....
I think you misunderstood me.
I meant to say that my opinions are not political driven'.
I do not say these things to defend Steinberg, just because I am part of the Steinberg furniture by now.

And again, I misread your post, thinking that you actually haven't upgraded to Nuendo 8 yet.
In that case, it would have been politics.

Hope you understand.
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

Fredo wrote:
MattiasNYC wrote:Well why is it that when others are ventilating their personal views on things it's all of a sudden "politics" or wanting to "publicly punish Steinberg"?....
I think you misunderstood me.
I meant to say that my opinions are not political driven'.
I do not say these things to defend Steinberg, just because I am part of the Steinberg furniture by now.

And again, I misread your post, thinking that you actually haven't upgraded to Nuendo 8 yet.
In that case, it would have been politics.

Hope you understand.
Fredo
Fredo,
could it be that you confuse me and MattiasNYC?
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

I seem to mix up everybody and everything these days.
:) <worried> :)

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by MattiasNYC »

All you need to do is get a pair of devices for your eyes that look like the ones for your ears (in your avatar). How sexy would that be!
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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Fredo »

I know the ears are attractive.
But i'm not gonna push it.

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Re: The new standard in audio to pocture work...

Post by Tronic »

Fredo wrote: With every new release, we always see these "will not be upgrading" comments.
As someone who has upgraded what I'm seeing is a .5 iteration (7.5) with NEK and Cubase 9 tweaks bundled, it's lazy, and it ignores the changes we have seen in the last 24 months as VR audio production needs have continued to grow. On the whole the improvements are useful, but Nuendo 8 is not as groundbreaking as Steinberg would like us to believe.

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