Mackie C4 Pro and Cubase

Yes i’ve worked on C4 in the past and had displays running fine using our own applications, the trick was to send the correct SysEx message to address the C4 (And not the MCU).

I wish i had a C4 here, or at least a working emulation so i could help you more.

In BOME MTP, my idea is just theory but it should work as you would have the following virtual ports which Cubase SENDS to for each MCU setup:-

Mackie 1 = VIRTUALMIDI1 (VM1),
Mackie 2 = VIRTUALMIDI2 (VM2)
Mackie 3 = VIRTUALMIDI3 (VM3)
Mackie 4 = VIRTUALMIDI4 (VM4)

And you just ensure that device ‘10’ is replaced by ‘17’ on all the incoming SysEX’s, and that row 10 is replaced by 30/31/32/33 respectively for each row.

VM1
Would Convert
F0 00 00 66 10 12 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 17 30 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

VM2
Would Convert
F0 00 00 66 10 12 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 17 31 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

VM3
Would Convert
F0 00 00 66 10 12 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 17 32 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

VM4
Would Convert
F0 00 00 66 10 12 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 17 33 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

Using MTP you would take those 4 filters, and then pass it to the C4 hardware, and ensure that the MCU’s are placed in the correct 1-4 order in Cubase to get the rows in the correct order. I believe you have to connect the last one first, so you would assign them VM4, VM3, VM2, VM1 etc.

That would be your initial starting point at getting the display to work.

Did you even read my post on page three? That happens if trolls are trolling, with useless comments (cubace, please stay away from here).
That is exactly what i wrote there.
But you can not convert anything from the MCU protocol. The adressing is correct, but there is no content that Cubase sends out. You can put your own ASCII code into the xx xx xx stuff, but not anything MCU related.

There is no F0 00 00 66 10 12 and therefore you can not change a $hit. You can use this approach for the Commander software as a example or your own software, but this will not magically make the displays working with a MCU protocol.
So again, did you ever get the displays working, with MCU protocol?

YES and YES and YES, how many times do i need to tell you?! This must be the third time i said that i’ve had display data running via MCU protocol. It was work i was carrying out with a partnership where we were wanting to make generic controllers that supported multiple protocols AND were modular by design (Meaning you could slot in in your own faders/rotaries etc.). The whole project was an impossibility as it became too big for us to support financially, but getting the displays running wasn’t hard from memory.

But you can not convert anything from the MCU protocol. The adressing is correct, but there is no content that Cubase sends out. You can put your own ASCII code into the xx xx xx stuff, but not anything MCU related.

Of course, this depends hugely on what mode you have the MCU set in (As controlled via Cubase), i presumed you were referring to being in insert/instrument mode on the MCU so that the display data WAS being sent from Cubase. Once you’re in that state of operation, if Cubase believes it’s sending that display data to 4 different MCU’s you can filter it to display onto the 4 rows of the C4 by manipulating the data because Cubase won’t mirror, but it will spread across. Therefore when you page through them it will jump ([NumberOfDevices]*8) too.

Sadly i only have an MCU, and no C4 - otherwise i’d do something in practise and send you the results. I cannot confirm my own theory if i have no way of testing it… But it should be quite easy to create a few virtual MIDI ports and filter SysEx to each as a test and pass on to a real MIDI port.

If it doesn’t work, and you’re out of ideas then it’s a dead end project and you can see why so many others have failed in the past.

I am sorry if i ask you the same that often. I have already a setup like you describe (build in MTP and setup in Cubase), but the displays are still blank. I admit that i did not include the sysex filter, because i never saw a incoming sysex.
You need to see it from my POV. I have only a C4, never owned a MCU or have any similar hardware that supports MCU.
So, i can not really tell you, in what “mode” i am. Not from just rotating, pushing, clicking blind in the woods with blank screens, i never saw a sysex with the midi-monitor. Maybe i just had not enough luck, to enter a different mode :confused: :blush: :sunglasses:

Just from observing midi-monitor and Cubase, this is what i have found out:
If second row encoders are pushed/pressed, then the 1st button (from left) is for routing, the 3rd button for pan, the 5th button for EQ bands, 6th button for channel strip. All reflected on third row rings. Other buttons from second row do something, but i do not know what.
Never saw a sysex here :frowning: :blush:

And yes, i know that Cubase spreads across. Anything that has more than one page, would be extended to the displays of a C4. That is how the C4 works in other DAWs too, with one exception that is if you use it in standalone mode (no MCU).

I do not see it currently as a dead end, it is quite the opposite. It might be the dead end for that damn MCU protocol, but otherwise the C4 is working more and more nicely. To be honest, the Commander software + MTP solution is superior to that damn MCU protocol. The only thing that is of interest for me, are the readouts of parameter-names. The rest is not relevant to me. Maybe, if i could see it in action, i will change my opinion. Right now, i can label, i have feedback, i can arrange how i want and can have dozens of dozens pages and mixing rows with VST support and real hardware synths.

Can you do that with the strict MCU protocol? I guess not :wink: .

Well the most fundamental is there is do distinction on how to add things and what it then should imply. This is a common problem for all remotes. Avid has even added a dedicated button for it called multi-select shift. So when you select that its should add the section to what ever is selected. Like keyboard cmd + select on does on mcu if your mouse is pointing at the right window, so if you dont look at your cubase screen cmd-select is random behaviour. However on EuCon select-shift does nothing, neither does keyboard shift do multi selection. The funny thing is there is a cmd key in EuCon, when that is pressed multi-select works on MCU (if the mouse points at certain window.) And then we have mixing fundamentals that relay on multi-selection. Group, folders, VCA etc it falls apart without that.

Right ok, so that puts you at a disadvantage then. There’s many modes of operation for a basic MCU and they require button pushes in addition to the V Pot controls. i.e. http://download.steinberg.net/downloads_software/documentation/Remote_Control_Devices.pdf

Page 7 of the manual, you can see the ‘instrument’ and ‘Plug-ins’ buttons on the MCU, you would need to send that data to put the MCU protocol into the mode to control either instrument or plugin for that track, for example. (Presuming you have Cubase set to the same mode as per this doc)

Just from observing midi-monitor and Cubase, this is what i have found out:
If second row encoders are pushed/pressed, then the 1st button (from left) is for routing, the 3rd button for pan, the 5th button for EQ bands, 6th button for channel strip. All reflected on third row rings. Other buttons from second row do something, but i do not know what.
Never saw a sysex here > :frowning: > > :blush: >

No, you won’t see any sysex data for those controls coming in to Cubase as they’re basic MIDI CC or note on type messages.

You need to monitor the data COMING OUT of cubase to capture the SysEx stream which is being sent. Whether you do this via software that can spy on software ports OR create a virtual set of MIDI connections to route through to do it (And pass on) is up to you. But if you’re capturing the output stream that’s where the SysEx data appears.

The rest is not relevant to me. Maybe, if i could see it in action, i will change my opinion. Right now, i can label, i have feedback, i can arrange how i want and can have dozens of dozens pages and mixing rows with VST support and real hardware synths.
Can you do that with the strict MCU protocol? I guess not > :wink: > .

You can do a lot with MCU protocol, as it’s all software driven. It’s the standard that everyone chooses to use that limits it, that and the lack of any progression over the years.

There’s a guy working on a CSI project for REAPER, it may be worth giving that project a look at as he knows the Mackie protocol pretty well and shows how useable it is:-

Also, i read last night that there is a C4 emulator on Lemur or OSC for the ipad, so if i get a moment i may try and get that running and try to help you more.

Ok, if i understand you right, i need to emulate the assignment button “Plug-Ins” and/or the “Instrument” button (left from the “Master” button), to engage into a different mode and then Cubase/MCU protocol starts sending a sysex, is this correct?

What I do not understand exactly is what you mean with this part of your post:
“Presuming you have Cubase set to the same mode as per this doc.”

You need to monitor the data COMING OUT of cubase to capture the SysEx stream which is being sent. Whether you do this via software that can spy on software ports OR create a virtual set of MIDI connections to route through to do it (And pass on) is up to you. But if you’re capturing the output stream that’s where the SysEx data appears.

Well, thats what i did. Anything else would not make much sense (for sniffing). I observed the IN and OUT from the C4 or the virtual cable(s). I used Midi-OX (on start of this project) and Bome MTP (currently) for that purpose.
Must be really bad luck, that i never saw a sysex coming out from Cubase :confused: :cry:

There’s a guy working on a CSI project for REAPER, it may be worth giving that project a look at as he knows the Mackie protocol pretty well and shows how useable it is:-
Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion - Page 234 - Cockos Incorporated Forums

Also, i read last night that there is a C4 emulator on Lemur or OSC for the ipad, so if i get a moment i may try and get that running and try to help you more.

First, thanks for the links. Still, this is nothing new to me. I did a huge amount of research regarding this project, to a degree where my closest friends started asking me, if i am ok :laughing: :sunglasses: . I talked already with many developers from other DAWs and there was indeed a lot of help, but at the end of the day, it is understandable that most of them will not invest any of their time to make C4 support available to Steinberg/Cubase. It is a rival product.
I must admit, that i did not talked to Geoff (because of the reasons i wrote before), but i read most of the threads there regarding the C4.
I also was on the Lemur page, seeing that C4 emulator. I think you mean this: https://liine.net/en/community/user-library/view/448/
I have problems with forum-registering there. It seems, there is no one who can activate my account for the forums (for weeks!).
By any means, if that panel can help you (and me). Give it a go.

I am truly thankful for your help. I wish i could share a couple of beers with you. Although funny fact, that the approach is nearly the same, to get the C4 working (at least, i liked that).

I might can borrow a Mackie Control from a friend. Before it was not clear enough for me, that i might really need that (just for the sysex-messages alone, i will need that thing).
Till the end of the week, i will try to make a more comprehensive guide regarding the C4 and this topic (pdf with about 15 pages).

I thought it would be quite easy to convert the sysex with Bome MTP, but it seems that i am not able to create a rule/translator that split the sysex into two parts (or more). Only relevant is the ID part and the adress number for the displays (basically four numbers). I can not find a way, that only these numbers are converted. If you have some elegant way to do this or know a good way for a global rule or something like this, please tell me how.
Right now, it seems i need to catch every single sysex that might be send from Cubase and i guess, there will be a lot, once i am in that mode, that the displays start working.

Again, many thanks so far.

No, Cubase will send SysEx feed the display as required. But to use the C4 to control plugin or instrument parameters you will need to send those buttons, which is why i made special mention to them. If you used an MCU it would become quite clear how it all works and how you could possibly embark on finding a solution outside of getting Steinberg to write a C4 extension.

What I do not understand exactly is what you mean with this part of your post:
“Presuming you have Cubase set to the same mode as per this doc.”

Sorry, there’s two modes of operation for MCU in Cubase, i can’t remember what they’re called from the top of my head (Compatibility i think is one of them). You have to be mindful of this as it can alter the selections on the device itself depending on which mode you’re running, so pick the newer mode which is called Cubase/Nuendo.

Well, thats what i did. Anything else would not make much sense (for sniffing). I observed the IN and OUT from the C4 or the virtual cable(s). I used Midi-OX (on start of this project) and Bome MTP (currently) for that purpose.
Must be really bad luck, that i never saw a sysex coming out from Cubase > :confused: > > :cry: >

Yes that’s really bad luck as i just checked myself with my MCU connected and the SysEx data is clearly being sent. Make sure you’re not filtering anything out and you are monitoring the correct ports. But obviously, you don’t need me to tell you that. What OS and Midi Monitor are you using?

I thought it would be quite easy to convert the sysex with Bome MTP, but it seems that i am not able to create a rule/translator that split the sysex into two parts (or more). Only relevant is the ID part and the adress number for the displays (basically four numbers). I can not find a way, that only these numbers are converted. If you have some elegant way to do this or know a good way for a global rule or something like this, please tell me how.

I’ve not used the modern versions of Bome MTP but i do use something called ‘PXT General’ by Native Kontrol which can convert DAW MCU transmissions to an Ableton Push 1 controller, and it uses the MT Player for that transcript. So, i know for sure that MTP is capable of carrying out such tasks including display manipulations. And this was running maybe 5+ years ago? so was probably created using the ‘classic’ version of MTP?

Ok, i think i did understand that. I will try to get that MCU of my friend. I gave up on the idea that Steinberg will do anything.

Sorry, there’s two modes of operation for MCU in Cubase, i can’t remember what they’re called from the top of my head (Compatibility i think is one of them). You have to be mindful of this as it can alter the selections on the device itself depending on which mode you’re running, so pick the newer mode which is called Cubase/Nuendo.

Ok. Checked, that is page 6 from your link. Will check that, as soon as i can sit in front of my setup again.
This reminds me also on that thing, that if you turn on a real MCU and press the select buttons 1+2, that there also modes (on the device) that are selectable. Do i need that too? Because if i need that, how would i make that possible, once i return the MCU to my friend again :confused:

Yes that’s really bad luck as i just checked myself with my MCU connected and the SysEx data is clearly being sent. Make sure you’re not filtering anything out and you are monitoring the correct ports. But obviously, you don’t need me to tell you that. What OS and Midi Monitor are you using?

OS: Windows 10 64bit
Cubase Pro 10.0.6
Monitoring: I used Midi-OX (on start of this project) and Bome MTP (currently) for that purpose.

If there would be any filtering accidently on, i would not see the sysex while turning on the C4 or while turning on Commander software (as a another example). I checked more than once, that in the Cubase program preferences, the midi filtering is unchecked for sysex. Other than that, where would you look at in Cubase?
I really do not know, why the hell i am not seeing any other sysex messages from the protocol :confused:
The only big difference i see is, you have a unit that is supposed to work with the MCU protocol :wink: and i try to fool that protocol.
Maybe it is this on page 240 from the Logic manual: Apple Logic Pro 7.2.1 Dedicated Control Surface Support User Manual 7: (Manual) Logic7 Cntrl Info

I’ve not used the modern versions of Bome MTP but i do use something called ‘PXT General’ by Native Kontrol which can convert DAW MCU transmissions to an Ableton Push 1 controller, and it uses the MT Player for that transcript. So, i know for sure that MTP is capable of carrying out such tasks including display manipulations. And this was running maybe 5+ years ago? so was probably created using the ‘classic’ version of MTP?

I am not questioning that MTP can do this task, but it will be many, many rules and not a single global rule. To make that possible, it will require a lot of work, to catch any possible case, where the MCU protocol sends out sysex. I can not find a way, to make it as easy, as the examples you and me wrote here before. Hope that makes clear, where my problem is, with this task.

So what looks easy here:

F0 00 00 66 10 12 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 17 30 xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

Will be by far not easy with MTP or I (and Bome support) are thinking fundamentely wrong here.
There is no option for “Change only the bold numbers.”

Oh you can just remap a button on your C4 by using MTP, (One that you don’t need) and then you get those buttons on your C4 - once you’re in each mode the V Pots control everything after that point.

I really do not know, why the hell i am not seeing any other sysex messages from the protocol > :confused: >
The only big difference i see is, you have a unit that is supposed to work with the MCU protocol > :wink: > and i try to fool that protocol.

Good point, perhaps the SysEx never gets sent as Cubase never receives the message it’s expecting at the start, whereas my MCU ‘is’ sending that acknowledgement back.

I’ve not studied the Cubase to MCU communication in any depth. As I’ve only been using Cubase since last year, previous to that i was a Mac/Logic user. But if the Steinberg extension was created with the approval/help of Mackie then you can guarantee that a SysEx reply is part of the protocol as per Mackie standards to protect their IP. So i’m 90% sure you’re on the right path here.

So what looks easy here:

F0 00 00 66 > 10 12 > xx xx xx xx xx xx F7
To
F0 00 00 66 > 17 30 > xx xx xx xx xx xx F7

Will be by far not easy with MTP or I (and Bome support) are thinking fundamentely wrong here.
There is no option for “Change only the bold numbers.”

I’ve not looked or used MTP recently, but i imagine it would be a find and replace style filter whereby you would run a replace on a “F0 00 00 66 10 12” match and replace with “F0 00 00 66 17 30” (for example). But i was under the impression that MTP had far greater control than that, and you could replace based on position in the string using substitute style variables.

It’s very hard for me to give you exact answers here as i neither have MTP or a C4, and time is at a premium too i’m afraid. But i will try and look myself to see what i can find out further.

The first hurdle is of course to get Cubase to send out MCU SysEx without an MCU connected. I wouldn’t concentrate on too much beyond that at this stage.

Just had a quick check and Cubase definetly spits out SysEx when you first select the device, even without an MCU connected. I got the following:-

F0 00 00 66 14 1A 00 F7
F0 00 00 66 15 1A 00 F7
F0 00 00 66 14 12 00 50 61 6E 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 4C 65 66 74 2D 52 69 67 68 74 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 61 67 65 3A 30 31 2F 30 32 20 F7
F0 00 00 66 14 12 38 4A 55 4E 4F 30 31 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 F7

Be sure to monitor at the point of selecting the output device for the Mackie in Cubase studio setup, as it only sends it at that point. It’s waiting for an acknowledgement of serial number, by googling looks like correct response to a 14 request (Serial number) is:-

F0 00 00 66 14 1B [7 byte serial number] F7
(i.e. F0 00 00 66 14 1B 58 59 5A 00 00 00 00 F7)

Not sure what the ‘15’ request is (F0 00 00 66 15 1A 00 F7), maybe it’s checking if it’s an extender or not. But it would be interesting to send an array of ‘F0 00 00 66 xx 1A 00 F7’ SysEx strings to your C4 to see at what point (i.e. which device id) you get a 'F0 00 00 66 xx 1B 'reponse back.

I’m presuming would be the start of cracking the initial communications here, again, damn i wish i had a C4 so i could test these theories. :frowning:

The premise i see here is, that a C4 does not have such mode at all. It is not the problem to emulate those buttons. The modes we are talking about here, are out of Cubase or any software. This is a hardware thing and i hope, that Cubase is not expecting it from a fooling C4. A C4 does not have any hidden modes like this on a real MCU unit. Or no that i am aware of. You can only turn it on, that is all :laughing:

Good point, perhaps the SysEx never gets sent as Cubase never receives the message it’s expecting at the start, whereas my MCU ‘is’ sending that acknowledgement back.

I’ve not studied the Cubase to MCU communication in any depth. As I’ve only been using Cubase since last year, previous to that i was a Mac/Logic user. But if the Steinberg extension was created with the approval/help of Mackie then you can guarantee that a SysEx reply is part of the protocol as per Mackie standards to protect their IP. So i’m 90% sure you’re on the right path here.

Yes, that is what i was afraid to hear. This could be neckbreaking to the project, if this is true and the evidence for a way earlier post i made, that the hardware itself is kind of a dongle-protection.

I’ve not looked or used MTP recently, but i imagine it would be a find and replace style filter whereby you would run a replace on a “F0 00 00 66 10 12” match and replace with “F0 00 00 66 17 30” (for example). But i was under the impression that MTP had far greater control than that, and you could replace based on position in the string using substitute style variables.

It’s very hard for me to give you exact answers here as i neither have MTP or a C4, and time is at a premium too i’m afraid. But i will try and look myself to see what i can find out further.

Yes, that is true, but that will only work if the sysex-messages have always the same “length”. Since, i do not see any sysex, i can not even really know such simple things like these. My guess is, the sysex messages will have not always the same length and if that is true, it will be pain in the a s s, writing rules for that. Maybe i have luck and the length will always be the same, that would be some relief :smiley: .
Thank you again, for all that time you even spend so far. At least someone who really understand the problems. MTP is free, it has only time-limitation (20 minutes i think) if you do not buy it.

The first hurdle is of course to get Cubase to send out MCU SysEx without an MCU connected. I wouldn’t concentrate on too much beyond that at this stage.

That is exactly my thoughts regarding this problem. I am on it.

Just had a quick check and Cubase definetly spits out SysEx when you first select the device, even without an MCU connected. I got the following:-

Yeah, that was something i forgot to tell you previously: Yes, i get a sysex after choosing “MCU” in the Studio Setup preferences in Cubase, but thats it. After that there is no other sysex coming out from Cubase/MCU protocol.
I will test all that thoroughly again and will post my result here, once i sit in front of my gear.

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@skijumptoes : I have made some progress so far. I managed with help from Bome MTP support to have the Assignment Buttons of a MCU working on a C4 on one display (but i can expand on all four). I run into problems with the level metering, i can activate it and see all the outgoing midi from Cubase, but nothing happens on the C4. I would like to know, how this process works on a real MCU with Cubase.
Has the protocol horizontal level metering or only vertical? How can you turn off the level metering? Is it like a toggle switch?
All i see from Cubase is vertical level metering and the data for it, but it seems that the adressing on a C4 is different. I had the same problems with the displays, but it seems that the metering needs a translation too.

Another question would be, how a real MCU handles huge VST Instruments with more then 64 parameters? Particular if you start recording them with automation. In theory you have only ca. 60 CC that you can use for recording, because you need another 60 CC for the feedback and you have 127 CC per midi-channel. So what happens, if you exceed that? It is important for me now to know, how i will handle the parameter-pages from VST Instruments and FX for my project. It does not make sense to me, to scroll through all the pages (and many VST have more than 100 parameters), if you only can use half or third of them efficiently.

Otherwise i am pretty satisfied with current results. I have Quick Controls working and i can even use the Remote Control Editor from Cubase efficiently. So you have kind of Commander Software inside Cubase already and that is very, very nice :smiley:
If you start the Channelstrip via Assignment button, you can spread it on two displays and show the whole EQ with bands on the other two displays. Having the Channel Strip+EQ from Cubase at once on all four displays so to say.

Hi,

You get the metering values (data) to MCU. There is no information about horizontal/vertical metering at all.

On MCU you can handle multiple plug-in parameters by switching Banks (8 parameters in every single Bank).

Hi Martin, maybe you misunderstood me. I get these sysex from Cubase: F0 00 00 66 14 21 01 F7
This indicates to start vertical level metering. And i got a lot of these:

D0 00
D0 10
D0 20
D0 30
D0 40
D0 50
D0 60
D0 70

These are the peak-levels. Reading what you wrote, i assume there is only vertical metering on a real MCU. How do you turn it off?
I know that the MCU has “pages” to scroll through multiple plug-in parameters, but i asked what happens if you start to record automation for more than 60 parameters on a single VST Instrument.

For example: take Retrologue and start to record automation for every parameter that you have. Since Retrologue has a lot parameters, i want to know where the limit is or what happens when you record more than 70 parameters.

There is no 60 parameter limit, as the software is mapping internally to the MCU’s x8 Vpots (or 4x8 on a C4), Midi CC isn’t involved whatsoever in this once the DAW has received the data, the DAW knows which controls are on each vpot, and then links this direct to the automation values within software.

I have plugins that are 20+ pages which is over 150 parameters. Not sure what the limit is on VST automation though.

Great thing about Cubase is that you can manually order these parameters and give them better ‘short names’ which appear on the displays - most mappings i have setup i can manage within 2-3 pages. Using a C4 that’d be even better! :slight_smile:

That is really quite interesting. I did not know that the parameter handling works that way. Somehow i am happy to hear this, on the other side i have more work to do for the project. On one side it makes sense what you say, on the other side i start questioning how your method reflects recorded parameter feedback, since you would have same CC for some parameters. I always thought that the CC should be unique to get everything working like you describe. Or is automation data not reflected on the V-pots/LED rings?

I assume now (thx to you) that if i use all four displays and 32 v-pots, that i still need to use unique CC for the V-pots, until i switch (per banking/paging) to the next set of 32 V-pots, which then could use the same CC like for the first 32 V-pots. Is this correct?

Since the C4 can control hardware-synths and FX (via the Commander Software), i wonder if this what you say, applies to that too?!?

And yes, you are right that there are plugins and VST´s that easily exceed 100 parameters. I have lots of them.
And yes, i can give them way better “short names”. It is somehow a shame, that Steinberg did not do that already with the stuff that is already included in Cubase. Instead it looks very random what Steinberg did here. I can safely say, that the UI for parameters looks mostly like $hit and this is described in a nice way. Most of the time, i have pages where you are not able to distuingish between what is what. It looks like a clustered mess mostly.
You can change that by giving them better names and at least a seperator or a space BETWEEN the parameters, but it involves a lot of work.

On a C4, i would have a huge advantage for the other remaining three displays, because i do not need to repeat one line of the first display. In theory i could use longer names or use the line for a better description of parameters on each of the other three displays. Sadly i can only work with what Cubase supports and the MCU protocol or the Remote Control Editor assumes that we are working with a MCU that has only one display. So i can not use longer names or whole line descriptions with Cubase alone.

If i find a way how to interrogate what plugin or VST is currently used, i may include that.

It is nice that you handle most of your stuff with 2-3 pages, but in my world a good VST synth needs at least 5-8 pages for basic operating. It would be a shame for the C4, not using his huge potential regarding this. At least for me, this is the part, that makes the most fun with the C4: True, bi-directional hardware remote controlling on software synths, in a way that was not possible before.

Yup all the parameters feed back to the V Pots/LED rings - of course you need to be on that page to see it, but as soon as you bank/page across all the V Pots/LED Rings update to the current values and follow any automation if it exists.

Likewise, if you change a plugin preset it will update instantly all the parameters for the page you are looking at. As i say, it’s all automation driven, so very instant.

I assume now (thx to you) that if i use all four displays and 32 v-pots, that i still need to use unique CC for the V-pots, until i switch (per banking/paging) to the next set of 32 V-pots, which then could use the same CC like for the first 32 V-pots. Is this correct?

Yup the V Pots are fixed in regards to the hardware/MIDI communication. The page/bank up and down buttons send a message to the Cubase remote protocol and it refreshes ‘in software’ what those v pots are focused on. Those page buttons don’t actually change what each hardware control sends (i.e. like an octave up/down button on a keyboard would affect which octave your keys play for example).

You have to consider the page controls to be purely a message to the DAW to request the next set of parameters from the automation list to send to your V Pots.

Since the C4 can control hardware-synths and FX (via the Commander Software), i wonder if this what you say, applies to that too?!?

No, that’s different as it’s running via the commander software and you are creating fixed MIDI Note/CC assignments so the page buttons will cause your controls to send out different MIDI cc’s based on the mappings created.

You can change that by giving them better names and at least a seperator or a space BETWEEN the parameters, but it involves a lot of work.

Haha yeah, the other sadness is for Behringer X Touch owners who have coloured scribble strips - imagine if the Mackie protocol could send a colour code, that would be great on a scribble strip - but they have hardware that’s capable of colour with no way of accessing it via MCU.

I’ve often thought that surely someone could just create a layer that takes the first character (0 to F or something) and that assigns a colour for the scribble strips, but the display drops that character and displays chars 2-9 (8) on the screen. You’d also need to add that extra character prefix to your track names to, but would be a nice experiment.

It is nice that you handle most of your stuff with 2-3 pages, but in my world a good VST synth needs at least 5-8 pages for basic operating. It would be a shame for the C4, not using his huge potential regarding this. At least for me, this is the part, that makes the most fun with the C4: True, bi-directional hardware remote controlling on software synths, in a way that was not possible before.

Oh don’t get me wrong, i have synths mapped via MCU that have the basic ‘quick’ functions as the first 8 controls, And those same controls i repeat in other sections so it’s not unusual to have 7-8 pages - i just don’t use it as much, so it would be something like:-

Page 1
Cutoff / Resonance / AmpAtt / AmpRel / Osc1Pitch / Osc2Pitch / LFOSpeed / LFODepth
Page 2 (Envelopes)
Amp Att / Amp Decay / Amp Sustain / Amp Release / Filt Att / Filt Decay / Filt Sustain / Filt Release
Page 3 (Filters)
Cutoff / Resonance / Filter Type / Filter > LFO
etc.

This is what i mean that my main mappings are in the first 1-3 pages.

Beyond those main pages, i then start doing stuff in more detail like:-
Page 5 (Osc 1)
Osc1 On / Osc1 Type / Osc1 SubType / Osc1 Pitch / Osc1 Fine / Osc1 Level / Osc 1 Phase
Page 6 (Osc 2)
Osc2 On / Osc2 Type / Osc2 SubType / Osc2 Pitch / Osc2 Fine / Osc2 Level / Osc 2 Phase
etc.

It’s really important to establish a naming convention too as you’re limited to 8 characters you can get smart with it, for example i put what the page relates to on the first vpot display, and i know the rest are part of that mapping group.

Taking Osc1 as an example, my display would be something like this:-

Osc1 On / Type / Type2 / Pitch / Fine / Level / Phase

Then when i page through the parameters i just watch that first display to see what group i’m in, stops the clutter and $hit as you call it. What i love best about MCU is how quick it all is, even with 10 pages i can still scroll through super quick where other controllers lag and screen takes ages to update. :slight_smile:

Ah, OK that makes sense to me. That is something that impress me and is clever dealt with.

I assume now (thx to you) that if i use all four displays and 32 v-pots, that i still need to use unique CC for the V-pots, until i switch (per banking/paging) to the next set of 32 V-pots, which then could use the same CC like for the first 32 V-pots. Is this correct?



Yup the V Pots are fixed in regards to the hardware/MIDI communication. The page/bank up and down buttons send a message to the Cubase remote protocol and it refreshes ‘in software’ what those v pots are focused on. Those page buttons don’t actually change what each hardware control sends (i.e. like an octave up/down button on a keyboard would affect which octave your keys play for example).

You have to consider the page controls to be purely a message to the DAW to request the next set of parameters from the automation list to send to your V Pots.

Thank you for this. This helps me a lot and i do not need to test what is happening after using 60 parameters with automation for myself. I really need to think about this more and what this really means to my project. I am little clueless how i can use all displays, because according what you wrote, Cubase needs to know, at which page you are. It is no problem, if i leave it to a single display, but if i want to use all four it will be a different story. Because paging on a C4 with four displays would only happen between page 4 and 5 or 8 and 9 and so on.
And Cubase needs to be aware of that :confused:

Since the C4 can control hardware-synths and FX (via the Commander Software), i wonder if this what you say, applies to that too?!?



No, that’s different as it’s running via the commander software and you are creating fixed MIDI Note/CC assignments so the page buttons will cause your controls to send out different MIDI cc’s based on the mappings created.

Ok, that is a relief to me. So i was not completely dumb, while thinking about this.

You can change that by giving them better names and at least a seperator or a space BETWEEN the parameters, but it involves a lot of work.



Haha yeah, the other sadness is for Behringer X Touch owners who have coloured scribble strips - imagine if the Mackie protocol could send a colour code, that would be great on a scribble strip - but they have hardware that’s capable of colour with no way of accessing it via MCU.

I’ve often thought that surely someone could just create a layer that takes the first character (0 to F or something) and that assigns a colour for the scribble strips, but the display drops that character and displays chars 2-9 (8) on the screen. You’d also need to add that extra character prefix to your track names to, but would be a nice experiment.

Something what i think is easy to do is, having different colors, according to what assignment button is pressed. Like having one color for EQ, one for PAN, one for VST Instruments and so on. I do not own a Behringer X Touch, but if someone can tell me what is to do for coloring, i might think about that and include it in my project.

It is nice that you handle most of your stuff with 2-3 pages, but in my world a good VST synth needs at least 5-8 pages for basic operating. It would be a shame for the C4, not using his huge potential regarding this. At least for me, this is the part, that makes the most fun with the C4: True, bi-directional hardware remote controlling on software synths, in a way that was not possible before.



Oh don’t get me wrong, i have synths mapped via MCU that have the basic ‘quick’ functions as the first 8 controls, And those same controls i repeat in other sections so it’s not unusual to have 7-8 pages - i just don’t use it as much, so it would be something like:-

Page 1
Cutoff / Resonance / AmpAtt / AmpRel / Osc1Pitch / Osc2Pitch / LFOSpeed / LFODepth
Page 2 (Envelopes)
Amp Att / Amp Decay / Amp Sustain / Amp Release / Filt Att / Filt Decay / Filt Sustain / Filt Release
Page 3 (Filters)
Cutoff / Resonance / Filter Type / Filter > LFO
etc.

This is what i mean that my main mappings are in the first 1-3 pages.

Beyond those main pages, i then start doing stuff in more detail like:-
Page 5 (Osc 1)
Osc1 On / Osc1 Type / Osc1 SubType / Osc1 Pitch / Osc1 Fine / Osc1 Level / Osc 1 Phase
Page 6 (Osc 2)
Osc2 On / Osc2 Type / Osc2 SubType / Osc2 Pitch / Osc2 Fine / Osc2 Level / Osc 2 Phase
etc.

It’s really important to establish a naming convention too as you’re limited to 8 characters you can get smart with it, for example i put what the page relates to on the first vpot display, and i know the rest are part of that mapping group.

Taking Osc1 as an example, my display would be something like this:-

Osc1 On / Type / Type2 / Pitch / Fine / Level / Phase

Then when i page through the parameters i just watch that first display to see what group i’m in, stops the clutter and $hit as you call it. What i love best about MCU is how quick it all is, even with 10 pages i can still scroll through super quick where other controllers lag and screen takes ages to update. > :slight_smile:

You are limited by 7 characters and by this, you will have no space or seperators again and everything will look cluttered again. So basically it is 6 characters, if you want to be safe and want a appealing look. On a X-Touch this might make sense, since you do not need space or seperators as you do not have one display for 8 channels, instead you have 8 small displays for each channel and you have a real world seperation or space between the displays.
55/56 Characters per line = 8 V-pots with 6 Characters = 48 + 7 Chars as space or seperator = one full line
And you are right, the MCU is really fast. Basically instant updates. It is much slower however, using your first suggested approach to use 4x MCU in the studio setup of Cubase to address the four displays of a C4.
I like the Quick Controls too, they always try to match the same parameters on another VST Instrument. I think i will do Steinbergs job here and have meaningful labeling for all the VST´s and FX that Cubase already provides. Any third party stuff, is up to the user to change that to his like. Because this is what every user of Cubase would have in common… the stuff that Cubase provides.

So only level metering makes me scratching my head now :wink: It seems that the C4 is expecting something different here.
Does the level metering work like the mixer in Cubase? Or does it work only on certain types of tracks, like only for audio tracks?