Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

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Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

fairly poor quality review IMO - does anybody think the reviewer actually used SL6 for any length of time. And has he actually used RX.

Like many 'reviews' more of a reworded press release IMO

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

dr wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:07 pm
fairly poor quality review IMO - does anybody think the reviewer actually used SL6 for any length of time. And has he actually used RX.

Like many 'reviews' more of a reworded press release IMO
By the sounds of it, if you read the review, and by my own uses - it sounds like they did some pretty indepth work that would have taken some time.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

lovegames wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:23 pm
dr wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:07 pm
fairly poor quality review IMO - does anybody think the reviewer actually used SL6 for any length of time. And has he actually used RX.

Like many 'reviews' more of a reworded press release IMO
By the sounds of it, if you read the review, and by my own uses - it sounds like they did some pretty indepth work that would have taken some time.
yes, I read the review

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

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The author talks about how much better SL is than 'all others'. And I'm like -how-? That's why I'm so frustrated with the lack of tutorials. So far... I have -no- idea why SL is 'better' than RX. It took me about 10 minutes to get comfy with RX.

I've tried SL about 10 times and each time I throw up my hands trying to 'get it'. My -hope- is that SL is like Wavelab--ie. it has a serious learning curve, but once you get it, you see why it's better. But without guidance? I'm not willing to suffer enough to find out via trial and error.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

suntower wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:46 pm
The author talks about how much better SL is than 'all others'. And I'm like -how-? That's why I'm so frustrated with the lack of tutorials. So far... I have -no- idea why SL is 'better' than RX. It took me about 10 minutes to get comfy with RX.
the author finds no issues or problems with SL6 - not one - zero - zilch - nada. Not even one of the many issues and inconsistencies pointed out by @lovegames himself - and apparently it's " backed by Steinberg's customer support" - haha wonder if he's ever needed to use it ! Robin does a reasonable job on this forum but that's nothing to do with SB.

I'm not criticising SL6 specially as I do get use from it and it was pretty cheap...but there's no chance at all that it's "better" than RX - it different and that's fine but not close to being better. (FWIW izotope support is first rate)

and we've been asking for tutorials for months....I'd stop holding your breath, there seems to be zero desire to produce them

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

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dr wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:14 pm
suntower wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:46 pm
The author talks about how much better SL is than 'all others'. And I'm like -how-? That's why I'm so frustrated with the lack of tutorials. So far... I have -no- idea why SL is 'better' than RX. It took me about 10 minutes to get comfy with RX.
the author finds no issues or problems with SL6 - not one - zero - zilch - nada. Not even one of the many issues and inconsistencies pointed out by @lovegames himself - and apparently it's " backed by Steinberg's customer support" - haha wonder if he's ever needed to use it ! Robin does a reasonable job on this forum but that's nothing to do with SB.

I'm not criticising SL6 specially as I do get use from it and it was pretty cheap...but there's no chance at all that it's "better" than RX - it different and that's fine but not close to being better. (FWIW izotope support is first rate)

and we've been asking for tutorials for months....I'd stop holding your breath, there seems to be zero desire to produce them
Everything takes longer than what the mind imagines, especially if you want the tutorials themselves to be good. Making proper tutorials takes time.

-Nobody at Steinberg is going to be an expert on the Software yet,
-Greg Ondo usually does the indepth tutorials and Hangout Q&As, he'd need time to thoroughly learn every aspect of the software, come up with a tutorial plan, come up with specific projects to show properly how the software works, come up with a script that is condensed, etc, etc.
-Robin is too busy coding to be doing tutorials.

Nothings easy. It's a new product on the roster, give it time.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by Robin Lobel »

Although I can't comment in details, lovegames pretty much summarized the situation. Official tutorials are coming. Meanwhile, you can refer to my unofficial intro video which contains some tutorials.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

robin, without trying to be too cynical

last september (2nd !) you said on the tutorial thread

"It's coming; unfortunately everything slows down during the holiday season..."

the holiday season you were referring to was last summer holiday - what seasonal holiday is to blame this time ?

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by StuartW »

I've kept quiet when the subject of tutorials has come up but often wonder what some of you would have done before the days of the internet and being led by the hand on how a product works. Back in bygone days when you stumped up a couple of grand for a synth and only got a (often badly translated from Japanese) basic user manual, you actually had to work at it. When Cubase (and PRO 24) first came out, there were no internet tutorials. Where's your sense of curiosity? What you get out of something is often a reflection of the effort you put into it. As an analogy, if you buy a car, do you really expect the manufacturer to teach you how to drive?
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

dr wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:21 pm
robin, without trying to be too cynical

last september (2nd !) you said on the tutorial thread

"It's coming; unfortunately everything slows down during the holiday season..."

the holiday season you were referring to was last summer holiday - what seasonal holiday is to blame this time ?
Definitely too cynical.

Open up the program, and mess with it. Load in some audio, something you want to fix. download a random youtube video if need and see what you can extract or clean up, just mess with it. start with the tools, explore each of their settings.

Once you get an idea of what the tools are doing, move to the layers and explore their concept/what they can do.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ctralayers

Working creatively with layers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbDxA2hF54M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmYnXN74100

Turning mono track into stereo
https://youtu.be/kzQYmr8xP-I

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by MrSoundman »

lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:37 am
Nothings easy. It's a new product on the roster, give it time.
... in the eternal words of Smokey Robinson, I second that emotion!
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

StuartW wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:56 pm
As an analogy, if you buy a car, do you really expect the manufacturer to teach you how to drive?
nope I don't expect it to teach me to drive - but then most cars have the same controls and do basically the same thing. If I buy a helicopter then I'll probably want a pointer in the right direction...I don't have time (or inclination) to 'mess around for a week or two'

FWIW I definitely predate the internet and yes, I know how to read a manual. The original cubase V1 atari manual was an A5 ring bound folder - very good indeed and very comprehensive. My korg MS20 manual similarly was excellent, actually 2 manuals. One of them was full of presets and examples. I could go on.

It's 2020 not 1978 - video tutorials are a necessity for many if not most - zero excuse for not providing them despite promising them. Could I work out every feature, nuance, shortcut....yeah, probably given time. I'd rather use some of that discovery time making some music...just my opinion obviously. If you want to fiddle your way to becoming expert that's your call.


Also bear in mind this is Spectrallayers 6......that's "six".....it's not a 'new product'

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by MrSoundman »

In the meantime, why not just ask your questions here, and at least give other users the opportunity to help out?
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

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lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:10 pm
Open up the program, and mess with it.
Can you imagine - that's exactly what I did with my trial; and probably what anyone would do... unfortunately the results I got weren't great.

So, I'm ready to blame myself of course; it must be me not knowing how to use the tool properly.!

Only, there's no skilled instruction, no proof, no evidence from the makers anywhere, what its actually capable of..? And I mean exactly, professionally, with real-world BEFORE and AFTER audio examples...

And here we are, still waiting to see/hear those.

In summary, I don't yet see nearly £300 of 'value for money' with this tool. YMMV of course.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

Puma0382 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:36 pm
lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:10 pm
Open up the program, and mess with it.
Can you imagine - that's exactly what I did with my trial; and probably what anyone would do... unfortunately the results I got weren't great.

So, I'm ready to blame myself of course; it must be me not knowing how to use the tool properly.!

Only, there's no skilled instruction, no proof, no evidence from the makers anywhere, what its actually capable of..? And I mean exactly, professionally, with real-world BEFORE and AFTER audio examples...

And here we are, still waiting to see/hear those.

In summary, I don't yet see nearly £300 of 'value for money' with this tool. YMMV of course.
Did you search YouTube???

I've paid off this program already with work by mostly using the eraser tool...


Mind you I've spent some time with RX7 in the past and they are similar concepts.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by Robin Lobel »

Guys... Even though official tutorials are coming (yes I know it's been delayed, that's frustrating to me too, but it's for the best in the long term), I'm not sure I understand why you're waiting for those ones specifically. As lovegames mentionned, there are already videos out there, and I even provided one I created recently in this very thread with a couple real examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8DYtf4LU0 - have you watched it ? It's only 9 minutes long and covers most of the basic concepts, settings and tools using 4/5 examples.
Also check the links posted by lovegame.

To comment on the Tape Op review, it highlights (though briefly) what's unique with SL : it's a full-featured spectral editor, as Photoshop is to picture editing - while RX is more focused on automated processes rather than actual spectral editing. So yes, it indeed has a steep learning curve. But when you start to get it, by experiencing different tools over your spectrogram depending on the problem you want to fix or the ideas you'd like to explore, it really gives you full control over your audio recording.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by balinas »

Robin Lobel wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:47 pm
Guys... Even though official tutorials are coming (yes I know it's been delayed, that's frustrating to me too, but it's for the best in the long term), I'm not sure I understand why you're waiting for those ones specifically. As lovegames mentionned, there are already videos out there, and I even provided one I created recently in this very thread with a couple real examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8DYtf4LU0 - have you watched it ? It's only 9 minutes long and covers most of the basic concepts, settings and tools using 4/5 examples.
Also check the links posted by lovegame.

To comment on the Tape Op review, it highlights (though briefly) what's unique with SL : it's a full-featured spectral editor, as Photoshop is to picture editing - while RX is more focused on automated processes rather than actual spectral editing. So yes, it indeed has a steep learning curve. But when you start to get it, by experiencing different tools over your spectrogram depending on the problem you want to fix or the ideas you'd like to explore, it really gives you full control over your audio recording.
Thanks, Robin. The tutorial you link was a good intro to the basic tools.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

Puma0382 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:36 pm
lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:10 pm
Open up the program, and mess with it.
Can you imagine - that's exactly what I did with my trial; and probably what anyone would do... unfortunately the results I got weren't great.

So, I'm ready to blame myself of course; it must be me not knowing how to use the tool properly.!

Only, there's no skilled instruction, no proof, no evidence from the makers anywhere, what its actually capable of..? And I mean exactly, professionally, with real-world BEFORE and AFTER audio examples...

And here we are, still waiting to see/hear those.

In summary, I don't yet see nearly £300 of 'value for money' with this tool. YMMV of course.
dr wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:21 pm
robin, without trying to be too cynical

last september (2nd !) you said on the tutorial thread

"It's coming; unfortunately everything slows down during the holiday season..."

the holiday season you were referring to was last summer holiday - what seasonal holiday is to blame this time ?
suntower wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:46 pm
The author talks about how much better SL is than 'all others'. And I'm like -how-? That's why I'm so frustrated with the lack of tutorials. So far... I have -no- idea why SL is 'better' than RX. It took me about 10 minutes to get comfy with RX.

I've tried SL about 10 times and each time I throw up my hands trying to 'get it'. My -hope- is that SL is like Wavelab--ie. it has a serious learning curve, but once you get it, you see why it's better. But without guidance? I'm not willing to suffer enough to find out via trial and error.



I made a links thread here
viewtopic.php?f=294&t=178986

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by dr »

thanks for that

genuinely useful

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by Puma0382 »

Robin Lobel wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:47 pm
Guys... Even though official tutorials are coming (yes I know it's been delayed, that's frustrating to me too, but it's for the best in the long term), I'm not sure I understand why you're waiting for those ones specifically. As lovegames mentionned, there are already videos out there, and I even provided one I created recently in this very thread with a couple real examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8DYtf4LU0 - have you watched it ? It's only 9 minutes long and covers most of the basic concepts, settings and tools using 4/5 examples.
Also check the links posted by lovegame.

To comment on the Tape Op review, it highlights (though briefly) what's unique with SL : it's a full-featured spectral editor, as Photoshop is to picture editing - while RX is more focused on automated processes rather than actual spectral editing. So yes, it indeed has a steep learning curve. But when you start to get it, by experiencing different tools over your spectrogram depending on the problem you want to fix or the ideas you'd like to explore, it really gives you full control over your audio recording.
Thanks Robin... Looking at your video was interesting; the early examples were simplistic enough. Importantly, I didn't like the results of the drums/bass gtr example at the end. For me, it sounded like the SL 'process' had ruined the drum sound somewhat; artifacts and unnatural harmonics introduced.

In essence, you're kind of confirming that I'm actually not missing out on anything here; the vids already available truly show-off the capabilities/limits (sonically) of what SL Pro can achieve.

Ok, but sorry - I'll have to leave it here, and say this is not for me just now. I will be keeping an eye on developments though.. ;)
System 1:- Win10 64bit, Gigabyte H81M m/board, Intel i7 4790 3.6Ghz, 16Gb RAM, NVIDIA GTX 750 Ti, 2 x 22" HD monitors; Steinberg UR44; Cubase Pro v10.5.20, WaveLab Pro v10.0.40, Studio One v4.6.1, Dorico Elements v3.5.10, Addictive Drums 2, Komplete 12, StylusRMX

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

Puma0382 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:38 pm
Robin Lobel wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:47 pm
Guys... Even though official tutorials are coming (yes I know it's been delayed, that's frustrating to me too, but it's for the best in the long term), I'm not sure I understand why you're waiting for those ones specifically. As lovegames mentionned, there are already videos out there, and I even provided one I created recently in this very thread with a couple real examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8DYtf4LU0 - have you watched it ? It's only 9 minutes long and covers most of the basic concepts, settings and tools using 4/5 examples.
Also check the links posted by lovegame.

To comment on the Tape Op review, it highlights (though briefly) what's unique with SL : it's a full-featured spectral editor, as Photoshop is to picture editing - while RX is more focused on automated processes rather than actual spectral editing. So yes, it indeed has a steep learning curve. But when you start to get it, by experiencing different tools over your spectrogram depending on the problem you want to fix or the ideas you'd like to explore, it really gives you full control over your audio recording.
Thanks Robin... Looking at your video was interesting; the early examples were simplistic enough. Importantly, I didn't like the results of the drums/bass gtr example at the end. For me, it sounded like the SL 'process' had ruined the drum sound somewhat; artifacts and unnatural harmonics introduced.

In essence, you're kind of confirming that I'm actually not missing out on anything here; the vids already available truly show-off the capabilities/limits (sonically) of what SL Pro can achieve.

Ok, but sorry - I'll have to leave it here, and say this is not for me just now. I will be keeping an eye on developments though.. ;)
Nothing is going to be lossless... It's always balance of necessary destruction for greater benefit. If the is a major phase/room sound problem between the kick and the snare - well, you can use a gate, or manually chop - but that has its own destructive effects of cutting down the decay and resonance. So not sure what you're expecting, magic maybe, but the results are actually significantly good compared to other options when you're working in the context of "pick your loss".

If you're working with a perfectly recorded snare and kick with a proper performance self-mix by the drummer, you're probably not going to apply this process as a conventional mixing practice.

And at that, you might also use this process as a parallel process combined with a choked punchy gate, a blend of the original track, some dynamic frequency ducking, etc, etc.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by Puma0382 »

lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:09 pm
Nothing is going to be lossless... It's always balance of necessary destruction for greater benefit. If the is a major phase/room sound problem between the kick and the snare - well, you can use a gate, or manually chop - but that has its own destructive effects of cutting down the decay and resonance. So not sure what you're expecting, magic maybe, but the results are actually significantly good compared to other options when you're working in the context of "pick your loss".

If you're working with a perfectly recorded snare and kick with a proper performance self-mix by the drummer, you're probably not going to apply this process as a conventional mixing practice.
No need to get sarcastic... seems you're taking all this a bit personally.

Listen, I'm literally going on what was presented to me. If those are the results, I'm absolutely NOT going to present that to a paying client, as example my best efforts on their material. In this instance, I'd 100% be searching for a different (better.!) solution. I'm happy for you that you're enjoying the tool. You seem genuinely enthusiastic.

EDIT: so I see you added to your post as I was replying; I rest my case.
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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by lovegames »

Puma0382 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:58 pm
lovegames wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:09 pm
Nothing is going to be lossless... It's always balance of necessary destruction for greater benefit. If the is a major phase/room sound problem between the kick and the snare - well, you can use a gate, or manually chop - but that has its own destructive effects of cutting down the decay and resonance. So not sure what you're expecting, magic maybe, but the results are actually significantly good compared to other options when you're working in the context of "pick your loss".

If you're working with a perfectly recorded snare and kick with a proper performance self-mix by the drummer, you're probably not going to apply this process as a conventional mixing practice.
No need to get sarcastic... seems you're taking all this a bit personally.

Listen, I'm literally going on what was presented to me. If those are the results, I'm absolutely NOT going to present that to a paying client, as example my best efforts on their material. In this instance, I'd 100% be searching for a different (better.!) solution. I'm happy for you that you're enjoying the tool. You seem genuinely enthusiastic.

EDIT: so I see you added to your post as I was replying; I rest my case.
Embrace it.

Not taking it personally, just analyzed that you're overlooking multiple aspects based on a short YouTube clip which simply showcases technical potential without exploration of the variabilities likely needed to dial in a final result. I'm hardly impressed by any music I hear used to showcase a DAW or a guitar performance showcasing a pedal, it typically sounds like royalty free music which it probably is - that doesn't stop me from understanding the technical capabilities of the DAW or pedal and how I could utilize them. As someone who has used the software extensively, you're blatantly overlooking some pretty obvious aspects and audio engineering philosophy here. If I had had this software with this particular feature 10 years ago when working on some very poor live recording mixes, these utilities likely would have helped me get at least a %10 better result, if not %50, but the %10 would have been worth the cost of the software - the end result might still not be great because of the source material being less than optimum - but better is better however slightly.

You're looking at the feature as a sole-process finished result - it's not necessarily. Almost none of the tools I use for deep sound-design for film get final results on their own.

How does my edit rest your case? I'm simply helping you by pointing out you're looking at it wrong, maybe don't take it personally and take a step back and give yourself an opportunity to rethink your approach and consensus and that might benefit you in your studio work.

chow for now.

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Re: Glowing Review in Tape-Op Magazine.

Post by Puma0382 »

lovegames wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:46 am
Embrace it.

Not taking it personally, just analyzed that you're overlooking multiple aspects based on a short YouTube clip which simply showcases technical potential without exploration of the variabilities likely needed to dial in a final result. I'm hardly impressed by any music I hear used to showcase a DAW or a guitar performance showcasing a pedal, it typically sounds like royalty free music which it probably is - that doesn't stop me from understanding the technical capabilities of the DAW or pedal and how I could utilize them. As someone who has used the software extensively, you're blatantly overlooking some pretty obvious aspects and audio engineering philosophy here. If I had had this software with this particular feature 10 years ago when working on some very poor live recording mixes, these utilities likely would have helped me get at least a %10 better result, if not %50, but the %10 would have been worth the cost of the software - the end result might still not be great because of the source material being less than optimum - but better is better however slightly.

You're looking at the feature as a sole-process finished result - it's not necessarily. Almost none of the tools I use for deep sound-design for film get final results on their own.

How does my edit rest your case? I'm simply helping you by pointing out you're looking at it wrong, maybe don't take it personally and take a step back and give yourself an opportunity to rethink your approach and consensus and that might benefit you in your studio work.

chow for now.
Thanks - and thanks for taking the time with me...

I've plenty of experience to draw on from throughout my audio engineer career so far. I'm mainly involved in the folk music/roots music sphere, with a good deal of mixing live band performances - I know my way around putting an album or two together.! I rarely do film sound or creative sound-design projects; I have done and I do understand some of the techniques etc, but I appreciate that is quite a different skill-set required.

So, back to where this all started ('am I using the app right'? lack of proper tutorial videos/real-world examples etc, etc). Seems, as Robin pointed out, these new, upcoming 'official' tutorials aren't going to be any great shakes away from whats seen on videos already out there - I'm probably not missing out on any of the apps technical merits or use of the tools within (when we do eventually get to see them).

With that, I now know its not me; I was curious, I took a look. Results were 'varied' enough shall we say, during my trial run, to not make me seek any sort of 'instant-buy' approval from the label boss. Right now, this tool is not an essential need.

Cheers,
Bob
System 1:- Win10 64bit, Gigabyte H81M m/board, Intel i7 4790 3.6Ghz, 16Gb RAM, NVIDIA GTX 750 Ti, 2 x 22" HD monitors; Steinberg UR44; Cubase Pro v10.5.20, WaveLab Pro v10.0.40, Studio One v4.6.1, Dorico Elements v3.5.10, Addictive Drums 2, Komplete 12, StylusRMX

System 2:- Win10 32bit, Q6600 2.4 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, Delta 1010LT; Cubase Pro v8.0.40, WaveLab Pro v9.1.0, Komplete10, StylusRMX

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