Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

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Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Niekbeem »

When I export my 5.1-main mix from a project in Nuendo, and select "Open in WaveLab" in the export-window, Wavelab 10 only shows the FrontLeft and FrontRight signals from this 6-channel 5.1-file.

What am I doing wrong?
And; anyone else experiencing this?

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by PG »

The only way to currenly import a 5.1 file in WaveLab, is to have a montage set in surround mode 5.1, and use the ribbon option Insert > Surround Audio File.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Niekbeem »

The only way to currenly import a 5.1 file in WaveLab, is to have a montage set in surround mode 5.1, and use the ribbon option Insert > Surround Audio File.
Then, what's the use of Nuendo's feature "open in Wavelab" when exporting surround files, which is one of Nuendo's core-features?

No offence, but my upgrade to WL10 has been a disappointment......all these tiny workarounds and things that are not working as supposed (yet?) should be fixed I think.

Anyway,
thanks.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by dr »

Neik

We've been waiting for proper multichannel/surround wav support for many many many (too many) years. It's always ''just around the corner". Think I first put in a feature request on the old forum (pre 2010) but here's one of mine from this forum - it links back to the old cubase.net forum so you can't see all the previous requests.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6929&p=46502#p46502

Basically this as been on the cards for 15 years or so. Many of us have been with Wavelab since the beginning and we're prepared to cut PG lot of slack as WL has generally been amazing over the years. Since the release of v10 that goodwill is running a little short.

Cubase/Nuendo have dealt with multichannel wavs correctly for years (decades ?)

For the first time since 1995 I'm contemplating alternatives to wavelab (and I have a few licences) - scary but at some point you gotta vote with your feet.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

dr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:09 pm
It's always ''just around the corner".
[...]
Since the release of v10 that goodwill is running a little short.
We've actually been told it was intended to be in 10, but is taking longer to finish than hoped. My guess is that the problems in 10 were the result of the new code put in place as part of the change, and a forced delivery deadline. Whether the job will be finished for 10.1.0 or a later 10.5.0 we cannot say - but it's clearly on the way now.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by dr »

pwhodges wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:32 pm
dr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:09 pm
It's always ''just around the corner".
[...]
Since the release of v10 that goodwill is running a little short.
We've actually been told it was intended to be in 10, but is taking longer to finish than hoped. My guess is that the problems in 10 were the result of the new code put in place as part of the change, and a forced delivery deadline. Whether the job will be finished for 10.1.0 or a later 10.5.0 we cannot say - but it's clearly on the way now.

Paul
Hi Paul

yes - that was my understanding - but I PG has been promising this for some time, albeit without a specific release schedule.

in fact I remember you asking for it 6 years ago (I'm on that thread too)

viewtopic.php?f=189&t=38056&p=340265&hi ... el#p340265

PG's reply was "This is seriously considered for version 9"

do we wait another 6 years or do we jump ship ?

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Iftekharul Anam »

dr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:38 pm

yes - that was my understanding - but I PG has been promising this for some time, albeit without a specific release schedule.
I beg to disagree. In fact, before I was buying Wavelab Pro 9.5, I asked if this feature is available or coming in the future. And, unless someone objects otherwise, this felt like a confirmation to me, and based on that, I bought Wavelab Pro. Probably should have bought something else.

Here is what I am hopefully evidently saying. viewtopic.php?f=244&t=136021
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Iftekharul Anam »

Niekbeem wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:03 am

And; anyone else experiencing this?

Niek/ Amsterdam
Very unfortunately, Yes. If there is a very basic editing/final check kind of matter (sometimes there may be just that), believe it or not, I have added Audacity to the Nuendo Post Process.

Open in Audacity.jpg
(342.52 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Apparently, Audacity, being a free software can open multichannel files directly and simply. I have been eyeing on SOUND FORGE Pro 14 Suite that includes Steinberg SpectraLayers Pro 6 + upgrade to Steinberg SpectraLayers Pro 7, and it can most likely open 32 multichannel files. If God is willing, I intend to buy that if I can manage the money.

Anyway, I apologize if I am sounding too much frustrated. I hope we can have a simpler workflow from the softwares we spend time (In some cases, more than our loved ones) with.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

It is known from official sources that work is in progress to enable WaveLab to handle multichannel files, so a solution will appear. However, just when that will be is not yet known.
Iftekharul Anam wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:04 pm
before I was buying Wavelab Pro 9.5, I asked if this feature is available or coming in the future. And, unless someone objects otherwise, this felt like a confirmation to me, and based on that, I bought Wavelab Pro.
It had been hoped that this would be part of WaveLab 10; sadly this turned out not to be possible - but work to make it a reality certainly continues.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

I think it is very likely to be included in the next version.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Thomas W. Bethel »

Just curious what are you doing with the 5.1 files. Is this for TV or ??? I just would like to know why this is so important for a few people. Are you working with 5.1 surround files or are you working with multichannel files that are going to be mixed down? I guess I never thought that WL was a multi channel editor and except for a few projects have never used it that way. I use Samplitude if I need multi channel support and then do the final two track mastering in WL.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

I guess your question is not so much what people are doing with multichannel files - cinema-style surround sound and ambisonics have both been around for decades as you must know well - but why do people want to use WaveLab for this when it is currently so lacking in the necessary facilities.

I can't speak for others, but for me the reason is that the WaveLab editing interface (especially the montage) is so superior to other programs that I would rather have the capability added to WaveLab than transfer my work to another program which I would find inferior in many ways.

Obviously an addition of this sort is far from trivial in comparison with writing a program from scratch with multichannel working built in (e.g. Reaper), but it can be done successfully (e.g. Adobe Audition). I believe that PG will be able to do this in the end, though it would not be surprising if (as happened with Audition) it takes several steps, adding different facilities to different parts of the program each time.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Thomas W. Bethel »

It seems that maybe there are other forces at play like Steinberg not wanting to take clients away from Cubase or Nuendo. This quest for multichannel audio in WL has been going on for years and never seems to get implemented the way people here want it to work. I don't know anything about coding or writing software but I can imagine if the authors of Reaper can do this why it is so hard for WL. I like WL the way it is and use it daily for mastering and for restoration work. If going multichannel is going to mess with the current way WL works then I would prefer it to stay the way it is. There seems to be a vocal minority here who want it to be a full multitrack DAW which seems counter to what WL was originally intended to be. If mutlitrack is eventually put into WL I doubt I would ever use it as we do almost no surround work.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by dr »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:42 pm
There seems to be a vocal minority here who want it to be a full multitrack DAW which seems counter to what WL was originally intended to be. If mutlitrack is eventually put into WL I doubt I would ever use it as we do almost no surround work.
I certainly don't want WL to become a multitrack DAW but I do want it to handle surround sound files in a simple and straightforward manner......PG seems to have skirted around the issue but never actually got to grips with it.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:42 pm
There seems to be a vocal minority here who want it to be a full multitrack DAW which seems counter to what WL was originally intended to be.
Distinguish carefully between multitrack and multichannel. I do not want a "multitrack" DAW. I am dreaming of an updated program that works just like the present one, except that files are not restricted to one or two channels. Stereo files are already multichannel; lifting the limit from two channels to a usefully higher value would make a world of difference for me.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Thomas W. Bethel »

Thanks for the clarification. Multichannel vs Multi-track understood. When we were doing a lot more live concert recordings I used to use the Montage for placing various elements (music, clapping, audience noises) on different tracks for smoothing out the transitions between songs. I think the most tracks I ever used was 6 (3 stereo) and Montage seemed to be perfect for what I needed to do. So what else except surround would you use a multichannel montage for? Just curious. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

Even in stereo I use the montage for most editing in preference to the wave view. But most of my editing for the past fifteen years has been of 4-channel recordings, which in WaveLab I can only edit in the montage with the channels split into separate files on multiple tracks. If/When the wave view can handle four-channel files, then I will probably make more use of it - not least for the spectral view.

As for what my four-channel files are... They start as signals from the four capsules of a first-order "tetrahedral" ambisonic microphone:

Image

Then they are processed into "B-format", which represents the directional aspects of the sound in a standardised way - in first-order as an omni and three orthogonal figure-of-8s:

Image

B-format can be used directly by a suitable player to feed signals to a two or three-dimensional array of speakers for complete surround; but for distribution to my users, I generate stereo or quad files which can be used without the special player. I can also generate binaural outputs which rotate with head movement (using a tracker on the headphones) so that the sound appears fixed in space as the listener moves. This technology is extensively used in gaming and virtual reality.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by dr »

pwhodges wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:06 pm
But most of my editing for the past fifteen years has been of 4-channel recordings (SNIP)
formats which have been handled properly by cubase and nuendo for many many years - at least back to 2005 IIRC

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by nkf »

It is always the same, probably the last 15-20 years:
People are wondering why they can't edit multi-channels in WL like with many other programs, even shareware. Then someone tries to patronize them, they were are asking for a DAW or don't know what WL is for. PG remains silent, while editing multi-channel files, or also mastering them, is now a necessity for more and more areas. It became a running gag in the mean time.
My guess is a need to re-write of the audio engine could be the obstacle - otherwise I cannot imagine why this basic functionality is not implemented since years.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Thomas W. Bethel »

In plain language can someone tell me exactly what they want WL to do with multichannel files? It seems that it can handle multichannel files in the Montage but are people asking for it to work with multichannel files in the edit window? If so doesn't that mean that WL would become a multitrack DAW? I am somewhat confused as to what users really want. Thanks in advance!
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by PG »

In plain language can someone tell me exactly what they want WL to do with multichannel files?
For example, any destructive editing, including Spectrum editing...

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by nkf »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
In plain language can someone tell me exactly what they want WL to do with multichannel files? It seems that it can handle multichannel files in the Montage
The same you can do with mono or stereo files in WL. What is so difficult to understand here? Or are you trying to be funny?
Montage cannot deal with interleaved files without splitting them, etc. You don't want to split multi-channel files without a special cause.
Right now I'm working with 2OA files in Nuendo 10.3 and could not edit them in WL, nor could I edit surround files with it. I often edit stereo files in WL though.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Iftekharul Anam »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
In plain language can someone tell me exactly what they want WL to do with multichannel files?
Hopefully, Wikipedia can help, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multichannel. I simply want Wavelab Pro to open multichannel files like not only stereo (2 channel/multichannel) files, but also 5.1 surround (6 channel/multichannel) files. Not only in the Montage, But also in the simple edit window.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
It seems that it can handle multichannel files in the Montage but are people asking for it to work with multichannel files in the edit window?
Yes, Wavelab can handle multichannel files in the Montage (although only 5.1/6 channels) but, people are asking for it to work with multichannel files in the edit window because otherwise, Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files and that is just one problem and there are other problems.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
If so doesn't that mean that WL would become a multitrack DAW?
No.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
I am somewhat confused as to what users really want. Thanks in advance!
I hope now you have at least some confusion resolved. Welcome!
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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by pwhodges »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:08 am
In plain language can someone tell me exactly what they want WL to do with multichannel files?
The same as it can do with stereo files; no more, no less.

Look at it another way. You perceive a two-channel file as a single entity representing the recorded sound you are working with. I perceive a four-channel file as a single entity representing the recorded sound I am working with.
doesn't that mean that WL would become a multitrack DAW?
By your logic, it already is, because stereo files are multichannel files with two channels. Increasing the channel limit for multichannel files from two to some higher number doesn't require a change to the nature of the program's facilities for operating with them from the user's point of view - a user of two-channel (aka stereo) files should notice no material change in the program.

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Re: Nuendo's "Open In Wavelab" doesn't open 5.1-files

Post by Thomas W. Bethel »

Thanks for all the clarification. I guess I always have used WL as a two channel/two track DAW designed for things like mastering and restoration (this is what I use it for) and I did my multichannel/multi-track work in Samplitude. One question that has NOT been answered is what are these files for? Is this for surround sound like 5.1 and 7.1 and Dolby Atmos or are these music files with different instruments on each track? Just curious. I am having difficulties figuring out why you would not do your multichannel work in Cubase or Nuendo or Samplitude (DAWs designed for multichannel/multi-track work) and then do your final "mastering" in WL. Is it a work flow problem or ???? What ever the reason it seems like it has taken a very long time to implement what people want in WL. Thanks in advance for the information.
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