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Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:35 am
by JDSStudios
This slows down everybody, including Greg Ondo or some of us that
have been with Steinberg for over 30 years.

Hierarchy is not the way to go unless you can imagine a dictionary
in hierarchy mode- it would take forever to learn vocabulary.
Learn from other software like Reaper.

Or, better yet, let us reorder and chose what is in our own menus, like in Reaper.

It would speed up work flow to both old and new users.
It makes no sense to have everything scrambled for the sake of hierarchy.

Alphabetical order simply lets you find everything faster.

EDIT: and it would be extremely easy to implement.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:02 am
by ErikG
Seriously?
So the edit menu would have copy at the top and paste at the end?

Really daft idea in my opinion.
Hierarchy is the way to organise things.

BUT what Steinberg did when they totally changed what was where and why (right click menu debacle) was equally daft and not at all thought through.
This change is why long time users struggle where to find things.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:15 pm
by JDSStudios
ErikG wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:02 am
Seriously?
So the edit menu would have copy at the top and paste at the end?

Really daft idea in my opinion.
Hierarchy is the way to organise things.

BUT what Steinberg did when they totally changed what was where and why (right click menu debacle) was equally daft and not at all thought through.
This change is why long time users struggle where to find things.
Absolutely!
Alphabetical is faster specially when the number of items is by the hundreds.
AND muscle memory would become consistent and forever organized.

Copy and paste is nothing, try 15 hours of heavy editing and creating, using hundreds of functions.

Keep hierarchy, yes, but to a MINIMUM!

It’s all scrambled, and it’s getting worse because hierarchies keep increasing in variety,
further separating every item list into smaller blocks, all around scrambled.

Have you ever even looked at a Reaper menu?

Even inside Steinberg’s hierarchy they are still scrambled and not alphabetical.
Messy and slows us down. And that’s the main point, it will make us slower on the long run.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:10 pm
by ErikG
I tried reaper way back, didn't warm up to it and never thought about the menus, but I never had issues with the previous menu system in Nuendo at all. I always found what I looked for in a effective and reasonable way. Now the limitations of the right click menu really negatively affects workflow.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:16 am
by Getalife2
Totally agree about the right click menu. Was way better before. Somebody in development decided to conform to their own personal preferences.

If you took a poll on this forum from experienced Nuendo users, it would be a landslide in favor of the previous, more complete right click menu.

Does anybody prefer the right click menu with half of the options removed?

Getting back OT, assuming the right click menu is never restored, the Audio menu at the top is getting really cumbersome. Lots and lots of entries there that seemed pretty haphazardly ordered to me. I might agree about alphabetizing the menus. It might be better.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:08 pm
by JDSStudios
ErikG wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:10 pm
I tried reaper way back, didn't warm up to it and never thought about the menus, but I never had issues with the previous menu system in Nuendo at all. I always found what I looked for in a effective and reasonable way. Now the limitations of the right click menu really negatively affects workflow.
No issues, the point is, alphabetical would let us be faster.
3 to 20 extra seconds extra looking for a function you don’t use as often,
is too many seconds.

320 million seconds is more than 10 years. (OK, my last coffee for now)

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:03 pm
by Fredo
And then we can start debating the naming of each function.
Add track
add arranger
add folder
add group
add instrument
add ....

You'd have a long list of similar functions (add/delete/merge/ ..) with all of the ADR functions on top and all of the zoom functions at the bottom.
Of should it be the other way around?

Track - add
Folder - add
... - add

But the again, all of the ADR functions would be on Top, all of the Zoom functions at the bottom.

This would also mean that renaming a function (for whatever reason) will screw up the "system" too.
:)

The matter of fact is that we don't like change.
And we don't like it because we have a reference in our head where everything is to be found.
The moment something changes, it causes a short-circuit in our brain.


Fredo

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:58 pm
by JDSStudios
Fredo wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:03 pm
And then we can start debating the naming of each function.
Add track
add arranger
add folder
add group
add instrument
add ....

You'd have a long list of similar functions (add/delete/merge/ ..) with all of the ADR functions on top and all of the zoom functions at the....
Fredo
Just don’t scramble; alphabetize:

Add arranger
Add folder
Add group
Add instrument
Add track


Alphabetical. It doesn’t matter because you will develop muscle memory anyway. Faster.
Alphabetical is designed for hundreds, thousands of items. Nuendo keeps growing.
The more items, the faster alphabetical becomes.

This is why I mentioned Reaper as an example: Menus are alphabetized, and you can reorder
and chose what your menus show. Perfect options.

Try making a dictionary Hierarchical, and not alphabetical. Too many items, too long to look for anything,
and even if we were to develop muscle memory in hundreds of items, we would still be way slower.
You would be forever stuck, getting nowhere.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:38 pm
by Jean-Michel B
I develop my muscle memory by learning to NOT use menus, but shortcuts instead. Clicking in a menu = 3s, a shortcut = 0,1s. I'm waiting for you at the coffee machine !


Please SB, never change for alphabetical menus.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:17 am
by JDSStudios
Jean-Michel B wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:38 pm
I develop my muscle memory by learning to NOT use menus, but shortcuts instead. Clicking in a menu = 3s, a shortcut = 0,1s. I'm waiting for you at the coffee machine !


Please SB, never change for alphabetical menus.


If you “do NOT use menus, but use shortcuts instead”, how can an alphabetical menu possibly inconvenience you?

If your muscle memory can’t deal with an alphabetical menu you may need more coffee.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:46 am
by MattiasNYC
I'm pretty much fine with the way things are now. It would be a net loss for me to relearn where things are. I don't see the point in that.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:54 am
by aas
-1

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:57 am
by Carvin Man
The alphabet is one of the greatest inventions ever... just saying ;)

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:00 pm
by JDSStudios
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:46 am
I'm pretty much fine with the way things are now. It would be a net loss for me to relearn where things are. I don't see the point in that.
You are right, not everyone has enough IQ to read an alphabetical list.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:05 pm
by JDSStudios
Carvin Man wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:57 am
The alphabet is one of the greatest inventions ever... just saying ;)
Exactly.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:12 pm
by MattiasNYC
JDSStudios wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:00 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:46 am
I'm pretty much fine with the way things are now. It would be a net loss for me to relearn where things are. I don't see the point in that.
You are right, not everyone has enough IQ to read an alphabetical list.
I'm not 100% sure exactly what it is I said here that warrants that response.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:18 pm
by Getalife2
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:12 pm
JDSStudios wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:00 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:46 am
I'm pretty much fine with the way things are now. It would be a net loss for me to relearn where things are. I don't see the point in that.
You are right, not everyone has enough IQ to read an alphabetical list.
I'm not 100% sure exactly what it is I said here that warrants that response.
It's not you. I've noticed he can be a little testy now and then.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:57 am
by Jean-Michel B
JDSStudios wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:17 am
If you “do NOT use menus, but use shortcuts instead”, how can an alphabetical menu possibly inconvenience you?

If your muscle memory can’t deal with an alphabetical menu you may need more coffee.
I'll need more coffee because I don't give shortcuts to features I rarely use. But if the menus are alphabetically sorted, they will not be sorted the same way in English and French. And I use use Nuendo in both languages. It should be a nightmare when I need those features.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
by JDSStudios
Getalife2 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:18 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:12 pm
JDSStudios wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:00 pm


You are right, not everyone has enough IQ to read an alphabetical list.
I'm not 100% sure exactly what it is I said here that warrants that response.
It's not you. I've noticed he can be a little testy now and then.
You could say something useful now and then.
A menu with 60 to 80 items, minimally divided in 2 o3 hierarchies alphabetical,
makes finding functions much faster, and muscle memory is allocated in a consistent manner.
Agreement or disagreement or constructive criticism are welcome.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:45 pm
by Getalife2
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
Getalife2 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:18 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:12 pm


I'm not 100% sure exactly what it is I said here that warrants that response.
It's not you. I've noticed he can be a little testy now and then.
You could say something useful now and then.
A menu with 60 to 80 items, minimally divided in 2 o3 hierarchies alphabetical,
makes finding functions much faster, and muscle memory is allocated in a consistent manner.
Agreement or disagreement or constructive criticism are welcome.
At what point in any discussion are you trying to be helpful or constructive by commenting on other people's IQ being low if they disagree with your proposal?

That's a serious question. Do you have an answer?

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:32 pm
by MattiasNYC
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
A menu with 60 to 80 items, minimally divided in 2 o3 hierarchies alphabetical,
60 to 80? That's a lot of scrolling vertically to select items.
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
makes finding functions much faster, and muscle memory is allocated in a consistent manner.
Not sure I understand the idea of talking about muscle memory and having things alphabetically at the same time. Once your muscles learn where items are then it won't matter if things are alphabetically anyway. And in order to do so you have to access the items a fair amount. So conversely speaking one could argue that the items that one does not learn aren't that important to find quickly because one doesn't do that that often, and we know that because if one did we'd learn to find them by "muscle memory".

And like I said, I don't see how it's a net positive for established users to relearn where items are in reorganized menus. I've already learned where things are. Why relearn if I don't have to? Do I save more time than I lose? I doubt it.
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
Agreement or disagreement or constructive criticism are welcome.
If questioning my intelligence as a response to my disagreement (with a 'constructive' reason for my disagreement) = "welcome" I'd hate to see what "unwelcome" looks like.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:15 pm
by JDSStudios
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:32 pm
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
A menu with 60 to 80 items, minimally divided in 2 o3 hierarchies alphabetical,
60 to 80? That's a lot of scrolling vertically to select items.
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
makes finding functions much faster, and muscle memory is allocated in a consistent manner.
Not sure I understand the idea of talking about muscle memory and having things alphabetically at the same time. Once your muscles learn where items are then it won't matter if things are alphabetically anyway. And in order to do so you have to access the items a fair amount. So conversely speaking one could argue that the items that one does not learn aren't that important to find quickly because one doesn't do that that often, and we know that because if one did we'd learn to find them by "muscle memory".

And like I said, I don't see how it's a net positive for established users to relearn where items are in reorganized menus. I've already learned where things are. Why relearn if I don't have to? Do I save more time than I lose? I doubt it.
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:51 pm
Agreement or disagreement or constructive criticism are welcome.
If questioning my intelligence as a response to my disagreement (with a 'constructive' reason for my disagreement) = "welcome" I'd hate to see what "unwelcome" looks like.

I’ve been in this forum from the beginning, and I see that you have 4228 posts and some are helpful, but many are “pis*ing” contests
with other Steinberg users here.
I started this thread about alphabetical menus because many modern software has it, including other DAWs, and it speeds work flow.
My response was because you said it’s hard to follow an alphabetical menu.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:54 pm
by MattiasNYC
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:15 pm
I’ve been in this forum from the beginning, and I see that you have 4228 posts and some are helpful, but many are “pis*ing” contests
with other Steinberg users here.
You started a thread about alphabetical ordering of menus. I responded with how I felt about that, just like other people did. You made it personal, not me.

Fredo didn't care for the idea. Erik called it "daft". Jean-Michel agreed as well.
JDSStudios wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:15 pm
My response was because you said it’s hard to follow an alphabetical menu.
I didn't say it was "hard to follow". I pretty much said that it's time consuming to relearn where things are. That doesn't equal "hard to follow".

But whatever. You made a statement. I and others disagreed. You then made it personal. Not sure if it's a part of the broader virus-induced climate or whatnot but I'll just ignore you from now on and you can do the same; deal? That should solve any issues you have with my posts being disagreeable.. and vice versa..

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:29 am
by Getalife2
It appears you do not have an answer to my question.

Re: Nuendo and Cubase should have menus in alphabetical order

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:34 am
by Fredo
Put it to rest guys ...


Fredo