Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

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J Buckingham
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

This issue is completely random. That is the clue.
Cubase is not reading EM data correctly during playback.
It is always during playback, never when auditioning articulations or just jamming on sounds.
And only when playing back multiple (6+) tracks that use EM's.
Cubase Pro 10.5.20, i7 9800x @ 4.2GHz, 128GB RAM, Windows 10 Home, Focusrite Scarlett Solo, Geforce GTX 1060

SimonCharlesHanna
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by SimonCharlesHanna »

Found a solution - go back to Cubase 10 (and start learning a new DAW)

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by matthewmooremusic »

SimonCharlesHanna wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:30 am
Found a solution - go back to Cubase 10 (and start learning a new DAW)
Funny you should say that.....

I've been on Cubase professionally for 17 years and have just started moving over to reaper to try and get a more reliable / bug free DAW However, damn!!!! Cubase (when it works) just has such an amazing workflow for composing.......

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,
matthewmooremusic wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:06 am
I've been on Cubase professionally for 17 years and have just started moving over to reaper to try and get a more reliable / bug free DAW However, damn!!!! Cubase (when it works) just has such an amazing workflow for composing.......
From my experience of using Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic, Digital Performer, Studio One, Sonar, Live, Reaper, there is no bug-free DAW. The level of bugs is more or less the same.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by matthewmooremusic »

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:39 pm
Hi,
matthewmooremusic wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:06 am
I've been on Cubase professionally for 17 years and have just started moving over to reaper to try and get a more reliable / bug free DAW However, damn!!!! Cubase (when it works) just has such an amazing workflow for composing.......
From my experience of using Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic, Digital Performer, Studio One, Sonar, Live, Reaper, there is no bug-free DAW. The level of bugs is more or less the same.
Thanks Martin. Agreed there is no DAW that is issue free. However I completely disagree with "The level of bugs is more or less the same."

I was studio manager / technical manager in a big London college for a number of years. I managed a suite of 15 macs with Cubase and Logic on them. By far, Cubase caused us more issues than Logic.

I also worked as a technician for a number of big name UK media composers and I found a similar situation both across mac and pcs. Cubase always caused more headaches than any other DAW I worked with

In my view, there are a number of issues at play here.

The first is: it's the severity and impact of the issues rather than the quantity.

The second is the regression problem - updates from Steinberg invariably break things that were working before. Look at the issue we are discussing here as an example.

The third is that Steinberg seemingly use a waterfall rather than Agile / C.I methodology. This means regressions, which can often be showstoppers for some users, hang around for too long. Look at reapers methodology. Yes there are bugs but they get attention rapidly. Agile works! and is much more satisfying for both the company and the end user.

I don't know how Steinberg operate their dev and testing cycles but my feeling is that they do not have a suitably robust QA in place or the ability to respond and release quickly.

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by arieln »

matthewmooremusic wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:23 am
The third is that Steinberg seemingly use a waterfall rather than Agile / C.I methodology. This means regressions, which can often be showstoppers for some users, hang around for too long. Look at reapers methodology. Yes there are bugs but they get attention rapidly. Agile works! and is much more satisfying for both the company and the end user.

I don't know how Steinberg operate their dev and testing cycles but my feeling is that they do not have a suitably robust QA in place or the ability to respond and release quickly.
Not only I agree 100%, but there is also absolutely no transparency or comment from Steinberg side, we don't even know if this issue is being look at!, neither "if" or "when" we can expect a fix for it.

It's very unfortunate, but I also find myself looking actively at other options lately.
I bought 10.5 from day one, and still can't use it properly. i can't keep working like this much longer.
Cubase Pro 10.5 / Windows 10 64bits

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by matthewmooremusic »

Thanks Arieln. The irony is when it works, cubase is an amazing tool. It's very creative and has some really innovative features. It's just that the features are often poorly implemented. It reminds me of the British car industry in the 70s and 80s. Some brilliant boffins came up with great innovations, then they went rifling through the dustbins to find the parts and put it together with sellotape and bluetack - said "that'll work" and shipped it out...only to find there were multiple untested problems.....

Perhaps "when it works, it's amazing" could become the new steinberg motto

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Matthias Quellmann »

Hi all,

We are aware of this thread, but as Martin mentioned, we haven't been able to reproduce the described issue yet. But we are not giving up on this!

Best,
Matthias
Matthias Quellmann - Senior Marketing Manager
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany
Checkout Steinberg on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook!

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

I was doing some experimenting and found an easy way to produce this issue. It should provide those concerned with an insight as to what is going on.
Repro:

1) Draw 4 whole notes
2) Make the first 3 pizzicato
3) Make the 4th note sustain
4) Loop the part
5) Press play (while in the Key Editor)
6) During the play back of the first or second note, click on the 4th note (sustain)
7) You will notice that the third note is played as sustain not pizzicato.

Conclusion:
EM expression data is too slow to trigger the third note as pizzicato i.e. there is lag in the processing of data coming from the Expression Map. Under heavy load this lag becomes too much for Cubase to process thus resulting in all tracks not receiving EM data on cue.
Cubase Pro 10.5.20, i7 9800x @ 4.2GHz, 128GB RAM, Windows 10 Home, Focusrite Scarlett Solo, Geforce GTX 1060

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by ldg75 »

Conclusion:
EM expression data is too slow to trigger the third note as pizzicato i.e. there is lag in the processing of data coming from the Expression Map. Under heavy load this lag becomes too much for Cubase to process thus resulting in all tracks not receiving EM data on cue.
Thanks J Buckingham, I hope this helps Cubase developers.
It's really strange that Steinberg cannot replicate this problem that we have in many!

Expression Maps is a crucial function (I have switched to Cubase from other DAWs precisely for this reason and I would not want to go back to where I came from) ...

Please solve soon!
Otherwise Cubase will seem more and more a software that promises many things but does not keep them!
Luigi di Guida
Film&Game Composer

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,
J Buckingham wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:02 pm
1) Draw 4 whole notes
2) Make the first 3 pizzicato
3) Make the 4th note sustain
4) Loop the part
5) Press play (while in the Key Editor)
6) During the play back of the first or second note, click on the 4th note (sustain)
7) You will notice that the third note is played as sustain not pizzicato.

Conclusion:
EM expression data is too slow to trigger the third note as pizzicato i.e. there is lag in the processing of data coming from the Expression Map. Under heavy load this lag becomes too much for Cubase to process thus resulting in all tracks not receiving EM data on cue.
I have tried this. I can reproduce it. But the problem is, I can reproduce it even in Cubase 10.0.60. And the original report in this thread says, this was working in C10.0.60 and doesn't work in C10.5 anymore.

From this, I would say this is other bug.

But I reported this repro to Steinberg CAN-30136.
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:33 pm
Hi,
I have tried this. I can reproduce it. But the problem is, I can reproduce it even in Cubase 10.0.60. And the original report in this thread says, this was working in C10.0.60 and doesn't work in C10.5 anymore.

From this, I would say this is other bug.

But I reported this repro to Steinberg CAN-30136.
Thanks Martin. I have a feeling that when this bug is fixed, the other bug will be fixed.
Cubase Pro 10.5.20, i7 9800x @ 4.2GHz, 128GB RAM, Windows 10 Home, Focusrite Scarlett Solo, Geforce GTX 1060

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Nidget67 »

I'm also having the same problem, random changes of articulations, articulations sometimes not switching and following an expression map change. I found my latest mix was crashing every time it played after I had used Spitfire BBSCO and expression maps from Spitfire and Transposed it to -2 in the Trumpets a1 for Bb. Iam reading from a score and have Bb and Eb brass band arrangements and also live instruments being recorded, so I thought Transpose the plugin and not the track, thinking that it might be the Midi transpose causing the wrong expressions, I took a few hours to figure out Cubase articulations and Spitfire dont like -2 transpose .
I can re create the crash every time if I am using a -2 transpose in the BBCSO instrument. as soon as you put an articulation in there is crashes with out fail. I have contacted Spitfire, but I fear it may be a bit of both
Cubase and Spitfire.png
(271.47 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I use Cubase Pro 10.5.20 and only use Spitfire Audio BBCSO V1.19 Pro with articulations.

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Robert Thomas »

Just to add another report this is still happening on Cubase 10.5.20 on Mac 10.15.6.

This renders projects using expression maps practically unusable.

I am having to go back to 10

Please can you sort this out urgently Steinberg?

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Dave500 »

I am having this issue as well in Cubase 10.5. My VSL articulations are randomly switching, making them virtually unusable.

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by reztes »

I'm going to talk about my case. I recently post it but I saw this post, it took my attetion and I realise it was the same problem:


Bug:
When I playback a track which uses intensive MIDI editing (CCs, virtual instruments, this stuff) if I have the key editor opened there is a big chance that the articulations and the CCs of several instruments go crazy (not only the one which Key editor is opened). Music drops, articulation changes, CCs values change. Only in the playback, they stay the same in the key editor and if I play the piece with all the editors closed it plays fine.

Steps:
Write a piece of music using Virtual instruments, Midi CCs, expression maps.
After having a big part done, open the key editor. Hit play. It may work well, but the "bug" may happen.

I was working with Cubase 10 until a few weeks ago. In Cubase 10 this never happened to me, in Cubase 10.5 is habitual.

Software Involved:
Windows 10 64 bit
Cubase 10.5 (in Cubase 10 everything works fine)
Kontakt
Spitfire Audio Symphonic Strings, Percussion and Brass
Orchestral Tools Berlin Woodwinds Revive.
Native Instruments The Grandeur.

I hope this can help to solve this issue.


AND I wanted to add what I think about Cubase:
  • First, they are forced to do a paid update/upgrade at the end of each year.
  • They don't test it, but the users (and they pay full price, because there is no entry sale at all).
  • They (almost) never solve the bugs of their features. Look at the relationship between MIDI tracks and Instrument Tracks (a bug which is SUPER easy to replicate, and it happens since the invention of Cubase instrument tracks).
  • Things that worked in early versions stop working properly with each update.
  • They don't take care of the community -unlike Dorico team, which is super active!-. The problem is that you don't know if they are going to solve the bug anytime soon.
I should say that Presonus has added Expression Maps in Studio One 5...

Of course, I wish that Cubase Team prove me wrong the sooner the better!! :)

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

ldg75 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:56 pm
Conclusion:
EM expression data is too slow to trigger the third note as pizzicato i.e. there is lag in the processing of data coming from the Expression Map. Under heavy load this lag becomes too much for Cubase to process thus resulting in all tracks not receiving EM data on cue.
Thanks J Buckingham, I hope this helps Cubase developers.
It's really strange that Steinberg cannot replicate this problem that we have in many!

Expression Maps is a crucial function (I have switched to Cubase from other DAWs precisely for this reason and I would not want to go back to where I came from) ...

Please solve soon!
Otherwise Cubase will seem more and more a software that promises many things but does not keep them!
I am amazed that an issue like this, with this many complaints, that can be reproduced in so many ways, cannot be reproduced by a team of expert software developers and engineers. Honestly amazed.

Image

Or maybe it is a case of denial, denial, denial, buys us time to fix this bug. I did not realise when signing up that I was dealing with a company this dishonest... or maybe just dysfunctional. Maybe Steinberg moderators could try this approach:

We have reproduced the bug but, due to lack of resources, will not be able to fix it until at least November when the next iteration of Cubase is released. Sorry for this inconvenience.

This approach would mean users could use workarounds or at least develop workarounds. And would also make Steinberg look less incompetent. Suggesting that a team of expert software developers and engineers cannot reproduce a bug that 100 people on this forum can, is adding insult to injury.
Cubase Pro 10.5.20, i7 9800x @ 4.2GHz, 128GB RAM, Windows 10 Home, Focusrite Scarlett Solo, Geforce GTX 1060

Martin.Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

J Buckingham wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:02 pm
Image
:D :D :D
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by paaltio »

So has anyone figured out reliable workarounds for this? Key Editor being open has been mentioned as one aspect of the reproduction steps, so does anyone have this happen if they close the Key Editor all the time? I don’t really do that because opening a new Key Editor in Windows occasionally flickers and blinds me in a dark studio (so I rather Ctrl-Tab), but I’m curious if that works.
AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X 32-Core, ASUS ROG Zenith II Extreme, 256GB RAM, RME HDSPe AIO, RTX 2080 Ti, Windows 10 (2004), Nuendo 10.3, Cubase 10.5.20, Dorico 3.5.10

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Sugar »

this could be related. CC messages at the start of a MIDI part are not always triggered or reliably chased. (E.g. a CC at 102.1.1.0 may not be triggered if your MIDI part also starts at 102.1.1.0).

This bug is killing me. Any help in sight?

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by ldg75 »

J Buckingham wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:02 pm
ldg75 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:56 pm
Conclusion:
EM expression data is too slow to trigger the third note as pizzicato i.e. there is lag in the processing of data coming from the Expression Map. Under heavy load this lag becomes too much for Cubase to process thus resulting in all tracks not receiving EM data on cue.
Thanks J Buckingham, I hope this helps Cubase developers.
It's really strange that Steinberg cannot replicate this problem that we have in many!

Expression Maps is a crucial function (I have switched to Cubase from other DAWs precisely for this reason and I would not want to go back to where I came from) ...

Please solve soon!
Otherwise Cubase will seem more and more a software that promises many things but does not keep them!
I am amazed that an issue like this, with this many complaints, that can be reproduced in so many ways, cannot be reproduced by a team of expert software developers and engineers. Honestly amazed.

Image

Or maybe it is a case of denial, denial, denial, buys us time to fix this bug. I did not realise when signing up that I was dealing with a company this dishonest... or maybe just dysfunctional. Maybe Steinberg moderators could try this approach:

We have reproduced the bug but, due to lack of resources, will not be able to fix it until at least November when the next iteration of Cubase is released. Sorry for this inconvenience.

This approach would mean users could use workarounds or at least develop workarounds. And would also make Steinberg look less incompetent. Suggesting that a team of expert software developers and engineers cannot reproduce a bug that 100 people on this forum can, is adding insult to injury.
+1
Luigi di Guida
Film&Game Composer

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