Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

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arieln
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Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by arieln »

Hi there!

Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulation on playback.
It's happening all the time!, it's diving me crazy!!

Sometimes when re-playing again, it plays properly a few notes and then it gets all messed up again until I play the whole phrase.
I keep re-playing things all the time, the amount of time lost just replaying things is absurd at this point.

Does anyone knows of a fix or at least a workaround?
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Martin.Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,

Try to unplug all your connected MIDI Devices (to make sure no device sent any MIDI Note). Add MIDI Monitor MIDI Insert and check, if the Key Switch MIDI has been sent.
Martin Jirsak
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arieln
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by arieln »

Hi Martin, thanks for the reply!.

I'll surely try that!, though, it seems strange, i've been using same controllers for ages without problems and it all worked fine with Cubase 10.

Anyway, I really hope that's the problem, thanks for the suggestion!.
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arieln
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by arieln »

Hi once again,

So I added a global midi monitor and there are no message being sent when these problems happen....just normal playback.
Also, when these problems occurs, the channels are not even being monitored or selected, and definitely not receiving midi messages, so I'm not sure the controllers have anything to do with this.

I also noticed that it's not randomly changing to any articulation, is more of a not triggering the right articulation and playing whatever is the default one situation....which makes me think, Cubase is not triggering these at appropriate times.

The expression map on itself is rather simple, just triggering key switches, and it's set as attribute instead of direction.

Does anyone else have similar issues?, anything else I should be looking into?
Any help (or even confirmation of a bug) would be highly appreciated.
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Martin.Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi

Could you provide s project snipped, where you can observe this, please?
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piers
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by piers »

Hi arieln, I might be having the same issue -

- Expression Maps will sporadically switch articulations in 10.5 during playback for no apparent reason
- Direction changes are sometimes ignored and do not trigger an articulation during playback, but then start working again after a stop/start.
- The issue is inconsistent, it seems to happen randomly, a few times a day
- The same Articulation Maps work without the issue in version 10
- Nothing going on in Midi Monitor, no other messages sending to the tracks..

for what it's worth, I'm using only Direction type, and my switches are via CC

NB this is not the same issue as the classic 'My Expression Map Resets on Stop' discussion.

thanks

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by BLOODMOON »

This is a bug in Cubase 10.5 that anyone can reproduce. If the next patch doesn't fix this problem, I'll have to use 10.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,
BLOODMOON wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:25 am
This is a bug in Cubase 10.5 that anyone can reproduce.
I cannot reproduce it so far (so not anyone can). Therefore I asked you for a project snipped, please.
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Zoberflote »

Hi,
I'm having the same problem, and I may have found something.
I noticed that when I'm listening to playback then click elsewhere for playback to move to that location, it messes up the articulation/expression playback. BUT, if I press stop then move the cursor to a new location then start again, it seems to work ok.
However, there are still occasional glitches where it will just play the wrong articulation for seemingly no reason...hope this helps.

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Zoberflote »

Btw, I'm experiencing this using Iconica Sections and players...I will try to include a sample if its still desired. I would REALLY like to see this addressed in a future update...

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,
Zoberflote wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm
Hi,
I'm having the same problem, and I may have found something.
I noticed that when I'm listening to playback then click elsewhere for playback to move to that location, it messes up the articulation/expression playback. BUT, if I press stop then move the cursor to a new location then start again, it seems to work ok.
However, there are still occasional glitches where it will just play the wrong articulation for seemingly no reason...hope this helps.
When you press Stop and move the cursor, the Chase MIDI Events is applied. So the previous (last before the position, where do you jump to) values of the MIDI CCs are sent out. Probably this will be it.
Martin Jirsak
How to show notes of the chord/scale only
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Zoberflote »

There's no problem when I press stop and move the cursor, the problem is when I move the cursor DURING playback...then Iconica seems to get stuck on the articulation I was on before the jump. HALion Symphonic Orchestra has this problem too.
One workaround I found is to create a separate track for each type of articulation...which I might end up doing

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,

Yes, this is what I tried to explain.

When you stop and move, all "last MIDI CCs" has been sent out (thanks to the Chase MIDI events enabled). So all articulation switchers MIDI CCs has been sent. If you don't stop, these "last MIDI CCs" had not been sent out, so the audition doesn't switch. And you have to wait for the next switchers.

Unfortunately if the instrument combines multiple switchers (to make a matrix, as it is with some VSL libraries), then it could be even more tricky and messy.
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,

I have tested this with MIDI Monitor. Actually I was wrong. Even when jumping while playback the chase MIDI events has been sent to the out. So the Note Expression data has been sent out. So it should behave exactly the same way when Stop + Jump or Jump while playback.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by SebastianG »

+1

Midi articulations are still misbehaving in 10.5.10.

This bug can be "reproduced" easily:

1. Have an event with a defined articulation (i.e Sustain) and another with a different articulation (i.e Spicatto).
2. Stop the playback at either of the events.
3. Expression of the event where playback was stopped will temporarily "override" the othesr present in different events.

Sometimes it is almost impossible to get the right expression back. Number 3 is what I've found what triggers it, but it is not necessarily a 100% chance, since doing it to "revert" the expressions back doesn't always fix it.

Sorry for grammar. English is my 2nd language.

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by ldg75 »

I've the same problem.

It is driving me crazy on some projects for which I have very little production time! :x

I can't believe that an update brings so many problems in essential cubase functions! :?: :!:

Expression maps were a feature that made me choose to switch to Cubase but if the updates are so full of bugs I'm afraid I'll have to go back to the DAW I came from. :cry:
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,

I'm sorry, I really try my best to reproduce it, but it does work as expected to me here. I'm trying with MIDI Monitor, so I do observe the real data which has been sent out. And from my point of view, this is always correct. So the only idea I have is that the sound library doesn't handle the articulation switch correctly. Could you test with the MIDI Monitor and double-check, what data has been sent out, please?

I even tried to trick a Cubase and I set the articulation switch as High Pitch (C7, D7). Knowing MIDI sends the MIDI data from Pitch 0 to Pitch 127, I was thinking that maybe if the Articulation change is at the very same position, as the MIDI Note, the Articulation change will be sent after the Note (because of higher Pitch then the Note). But even this works as expected here, so the Articulation switch comes before the MIDI Note.

My test project is very simple (to be able to read the result).
  • 1 MIDI Track with Expression Map.
  • The Expression Map contains 2 expressions:
    • Legato: C7
    • Spiccato: D7
  • The MIDI Track contains two MIDI Parts.
    • Part 1 in time 3.1.1
    • Part 2 in time 9.1.1
  • Every single MIDI Part contains 1 MIDI Note at the very beginning of the MIDI Part and the Articulation switch at the very beginning of the MIDI Part.
Test
1. Cursor at bar 2.
2. Playback.
-> The Articulation (Note C7, volume 120) and the original MIDI Note has been sent out at 3.1.1.
3. Stop at 4.1.1
4. Jump to 8.1.1
-> No articulation data has been sent out.
5. Start Playback.
-> The Articulation (Note C7, volume 0 and Note D7, volume 120) and the original MIDI Note has been sent out at 9.1.1.
6. Stop Playback.
7. Jump to 2.1.1
-> The Articulation (Note D7, volume 0 and Note C7, volume 120) has been sent out.
8. Repeat the steps 2-3.
9. Jump to 9.1.1 (where the 2nd MIDI Part starts).
-> Nothing has been sent out yet.
10. Start Playback.
-> The Articulation (Note C7, volume 0 and Note D7, volume 120) and the original MIDI Note has been sent out at 9.1.1.
11. Stop Playback.
12. Jump to 2.1.1
-> The Articulation (Note D7, volume 0 and Note C7, volume 120) has been sent out.
13. Repeat the steps 2-3.
14. Jump to 10.1.1 (in to the 2nd MIDI Part).
-> The Articulation (Note C7, volume 0 and Note D7, volume 120) has been sent out at 9.1.1.

Could you attach your project, with the Markers, where should I stop, where should I jump, please? Could you try with the MIDI Monitor, to verify, what has been sent out, really, please?
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by BLOODMOON »

The problem may not occur with just one small instrument. Problems often arise in large projects.
In version 10.5.12, there are still problems with tracks using expression maps, such as the notes breaking during playback. So I'm still using 10.0 and no problems.
This is not just a problem with iconica. I use kontakt libraries.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

I am having this issue as well. I would like to send a project file but every time it happens it somehow fixes itself when I hit stop and start a few times.
Sometimes I go to the output mapping and move the order of the controllers around and this fixes it. I thought that it was a VI Pro issue. Now I am beginning to suspect that the problem lies with Cubase. :|
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,

Do you have the issue with a project without Vienna? How often does it happen. How high is the chance that if I would open the project, I could get into the state too? Is it like 5 of 10 Playback Starts or less or more?
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

Hi,

Here is a project file for Cubase and VE Pro with serious issues.
Exp.Map Issues.zip
(103.34 KiB) Downloaded 34 times
Play the part. It should play the Legato sample no problems. Then go into VI Pro inside VE Pro and manually select a different Cell. You will now notice that ALL Legato Expression Map messages are ignored by Cubase and/or not received by VI Pro.
Here is a video that clearly shows VI Pro NOT receiving correct/any Exp. Map messages from Cubase.
https://youtu.be/t0ukW5E1Z_g

Cubase is consistently getting stuck on articulations.

Here is another video that shows VI Pro not receiving Exp. Map Messages from Cubase. You can see that the loop keeps playing but the articulation only changes when I manually select a different Cell in VI Pro.
https://youtu.be/-1hHGlq_bIE
Last edited by J Buckingham on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Zoberflote »

BLOODMOON wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:14 am
The problem may not occur with just one small instrument. Problems often arise in large projects.
In version 10.5.12, there are still problems with tracks using expression maps, such as the notes breaking during playback. So I'm still using 10.0 and no problems.
This is not just a problem with iconica. I use kontakt libraries.
Yes, this problem is still occurring in 10.5.12 for me as well. Notes will "drop out" or break during playback (I'm working with Iconica in a large orchestral project). Sometimes it will playback as it's supposed to, but most of the time something breaks or drops out.

Also, I've noticed it's always THE SAME instruments/articulations that give me a problem in certain spots, and I tried deleting the data and re-entering it but still the same problem...maybe this is a clue?

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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by Martin.Jirsak »

Hi,
Zoberflote wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:38 am
Also, I've noticed it's always THE SAME instruments/articulations that give me a problem in certain spots, and I tried deleting the data and re-entering it but still the same problem...maybe this is a clue?
This is very interesting. Could you attach a sample project (snippet) where this error occurres, please? Work Iconica library, to be able to reproduce it here. Thanks
Martin Jirsak
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by -steve- »

Please limit posts to content about the topic, not personal conflicts.
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Re: Cubase 10.5 randomly changes expression maps articulations on playback.

Post by J Buckingham »

Any word on this issue?. I just played back a project that needed to be stopped and started constantly due to notes cutting off. I did post a project that clearly demonstrates an unreliability issue with Expression Maps. That was a while ago now and I also contacted the Australian support who did not reply.
So here is the project file in case it was missed.
Attachments
Exp.Map Issues.zip
(103.34 KiB) Downloaded 33 times
Cubase Pro 10.5.20, i7 9800x @ 4.2GHz, 128GB RAM, Windows 10 Home, Focusrite Scarlett Solo, Geforce GTX 1060

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