[SOLVED] ExMap and PercMap Not Working - Help Needed

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[SOLVED] ExMap and PercMap Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

I have been working successfully with Expression Maps for VSL VI series instruments. The articulations I have set up are working.

I created a new custom articulation for Tremolo Sforzato. Both It and the regular Tremolo articulation are entered in the same Expression Map, each referencing it's own separate VI Pro cell in the same matrix. I assign Tremolo Sforzato to the first note in a score, and Tremolo to the second.

Yet in the Playing Techniques lane in Play the first note shows wrongly as Natural while the second note shows correctly as Tremolo.

I have attached pictures documenting my setup of Tremolo Sforzato.

Gosh I know I'm missing something, because the other articualtions are working, but as seems my habit, I can't figure out why.

I am attaching screen captures of all relevant setup. In order to attached them all some will have to spill over into the next post.
Last edited by DaddyO on Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: EM Entry Not Working Though Set Up Same As The Rest

Post by DaddyO »

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

I suspect you'll need to attach an actual project rather than just a series of screenshots in order for us to troubleshoot this. Can you create the simplest possible project that reproduces the problem, e.g. a single instrument and two or three notes, no dynamics, slurs or other markings, and attach that?

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by fratveno »

...and Natural is part of your mutual exclusion group as well...?
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

fratveno wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:41 pm
...and Natural is part of your mutual exclusion group as well...?
Yes. It's a manual exclusion group with every EM entry in it.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:46 pm
I suspect you'll need to attach an actual project rather than just a series of screenshots in order for us to troubleshoot this. Can you create the simplest possible project that reproduces the problem, e.g. a single instrument and two or three notes, no dynamics, slurs or other markings, and attach that?
Will do, thanks Daniel.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

Here's the project pared down to one instrument and three bars. The first note has my non-working custom playing technique (Tremolo Sforzato), the next has Tremolo assigned, which is working as expected.

Thanks for looking into it.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

Ok -- so all your articulations are actually single articulations and this is re-enforced by making them all mutually exclusive in the exclusion groups. This means your tremolo sforzato is not a tremolo+sforzato combi but a single articulation called tremolo sforzato. In your score are what looks like both sf and trem on the same note. However you have defined in your pt's a new glyph for the combo so all looks in order.

Having ruled that out, I would then check if you tested the combo in various positions in the score without being immediately followed by a tremolo on its own. For instance if this articulation kicks in a note too late then it's not able to pick up the articulation immediately. In this case just put around -5 on the "playback start offset" which solves many such problems. If you are getting no switch change under any circumstances, then I'd need to look again. I'm assuming you're using the full VI VSL instruments? I can't test that directly but if you also have the Special Edition then I could try and replicate.

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by fratveno »

Call your PPtechnique something more unique, like TremSf. Looks like D. gets confused by having two PP techniques starting with the word 'Tremolo' (Also, in your xmap, when trying to edit the offending technique it seems to be associated with Tremolo rather than your custom technique... )
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

I don't see the logic of this. This would surely mean that Dorico would have problems distinguishing between, for instance, detache and detache short -- the former being natively supported and the latter a user defined one as in our example -- but that is not the case and the names are clearly distinguishable (p.t.tremolo and pt.user.tremolo_sforzato). But maybe I'm not seeing something here?

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by fratveno »

I've worked around a similar problem previously, but I didn't attempt to get to the bottom of it... (may be a small bug somewhere regarding Natural...?)

there is a clue:
hovering 'Natural' in the PT lane in play says:
Base Switch: Natural
Active Techniques: Tremolo Sforzato
...
(BTW, the PPT technique was defined as Ornament rather than Technique... don't know if it matters)

EDIT: If one 'corrects' the Xmap assignment of Tremolo Sforzato to Tremolo Sforzato (rather than just Tremolo, as it stands) hovering the Tremolo Sforzato in the PT lane says:
Base Switch: Tremolo Sforzato: Tremolo Sforzato
Acive techniques: Tremolo Sforzato
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

Think I've got it. In the Expression Map, I just spotted that the Tremolo Sforzato switch is using the Tremolo p.t. and not the Tremolo Sforzato p.t. Should have spotted this immediately really! This of course means a clash which confuses the system in reverting to natural, I would imagine.

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

fratveno wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:01 am
there is a clue:
hovering 'Natural' in the PT lane in play says:
Base Switch: Natural
Active Techniques: Tremolo Sforzato
Thanks, fratveno. Can't believe I hadn't seen that. My eye must have just seen the "Natural" and then filled in the rest with what I expected to see rather than what was actually there.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

dko22 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:05 am
Ok -- so all your articulations are actually single articulations and this is re-enforced by making them all mutually exclusive in the exclusion groups. This means your tremolo sforzato is not a tremolo+sforzato combi but a single articulation called tremolo sforzato. In your score are what looks like both sf and trem on the same note. However you have defined in your pt's a new glyph for the combo so all looks in order.

Having ruled that out, I would then check if you tested the combo in various positions in the score without being immediately followed by a tremolo on its own. For instance if this articulation kicks in a note too late then it's not able to pick up the articulation immediately. In this case just put around -5 on the "playback start offset" which solves many such problems. If you are getting no switch change under any circumstances, then I'd need to look again. I'm assuming you're using the full VI VSL instruments? I can't test that directly but if you also have the Special Edition then I could try and replicate.
Re: single articulations vs. combinations, I am so far working this way by design. And yes, I designed a special glyph that combines the glyphs for Tremolo and Sforzato. I have so far as I can tell set things up in this regard properly.

Re: testing various positions in the score, I will try that.

Re: playback offset, I've searched the manual and the web and come up empty on how to do that. Help here is appreciated.

Re: the instruments I am using, I am using SE Orchestral Strings for this test. Unfortunately I have been able to upgrade all my core Wind, Brass and Percussion instruments to the regular Standard versions except strings.

Thanks for working to help me with this.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

fratveno wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:05 am
Call your PPtechnique something more unique, like TremSf. Looks like D. gets confused by having two PP techniques starting with the word 'Tremolo' (Also, in your xmap, when trying to edit the offending technique it seems to be associated with Tremolo rather than your custom technique... )
Thanks fratveno.

So far as I can tell the name of my custom PP technique is unique. Though it does have a word in common with the regular Tremolo technique, there are many such instances in the techniques that come stock with Dorico. Hopefully someone from Dorico will chime in and tell us whether this is really a possible culprit.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

fratveno wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:01 am
(BTW, the PPT technique was defined as Ornament rather than Technique... don't know if it matters)

EDIT: If one 'corrects' the Xmap assignment of Tremolo Sforzato to Tremolo Sforzato (rather than just Tremolo, as it stands) hovering the Tremolo Sforzato in the PT lane says:
Base Switch: Tremolo Sforzato: Tremolo Sforzato
Acive techniques: Tremolo Sforzato
Re: Ornament rather than Technique, I was just following the convention that Dorico used with the regular Tremolo.

Re: Correcting the Xmap assignment, when I look at it using the file I uploaded (and in my full original file) I see PT Tremolo Sforzato already tied to PPT Tremolo Sforzato. Interesting. Also interesting that you can get the Play lane correct by making this change. Here I cannot make the change since it already shows correct.
Last edited by DaddyO on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

dko22 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:59 am
Think I've got it. In the Expression Map, I just spotted that the Tremolo Sforzato switch is using the Tremolo p.t. and not the Tremolo Sforzato p.t. Should have spotted this immediately really! This of course means a clash which confuses the system in reverting to natural, I would imagine.
Wow, you've got the same thing showing that fratveno does. See the attached screen shot from test project unchanged by me. The original full project shows the same thing. When I look at the file here the PT Tremolo Sforzato IS ALREADY tied to the PPT Tremolo Sforzato. I'm confused. I keep checking again to see if I'm seeing things wrong, but every time I do the assignment looks correct here.

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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

dko22 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:05 am
I would then check if you tested the combo in various positions in the score without being immediately followed by a tremolo on its own.
Tried this with other articulations before and after, all the other articulations worked while the Tremolo Sforzato still shows in the Play lane as before, "Natural" with active playing technique "Tremolo Sforzato"
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

This has me stumped. If the Dorico team looks at it and says the assignment is wrong, then I will conclude that I'm living in an alternative universe!

[laughs]
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

no, this .png simply shows that the playing technique has correctly been assigned in general terms and was in fact one of the first things I checked! What I was looking at were the screenshots below from the EM. Here you can see in two ways that in fact the tremolo p.t has in fact been assigned to the Tremolo Sforzato base switch. A slip of the finger and this can easily happen if you're for instance trying to duplicate and then modify switches -- I've done it myself more than once!

Surely that at least brings you back into the same universe at least?
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

Aha! Fixed and working!

Now I see what you mean. I was being fooled by the name in the ExMap entry. Apparently when I made the entry without realizing it I had changed the name rather than make the appropriate selection from the list. That explains why most work and this one doesn't.

I definitely had used a duplication of the Tremolo technique, now that I think about it.

THANK YOU dko22 and also Fratveno for your help! This is an easy fix, and something to put on my troubleshooting list for when ExMaps don't seem to be working right.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

Glad to hear it! As I said from personal experience, it's very easy to duplicate an entry and then forget to edit the p.t in the duplicated version. :)

By the way, on your question about playback offset, I was referring to the screenshot below. Most of the time, you shouldn't need it but if you're planning to use portamenti in VSL and they don't play back, this should probably be one of your first ports of call.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

dko22 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:39 pm
Glad to hear it! As I said from personal experience, it's very easy to duplicate an entry and then forget to edit the p.t in the duplicated version. :)

By the way, on your question about playback offset, I was referring to the screenshot below. Most of the time, you shouldn't need it but if you're planning to use portamenti in VSL and they don't play back, this should probably be one of your first ports of call.
Based on the screenshot playback offset is not a setting. It appears to be a matter of nudging the PT in engraving?

And yes, forgetting is easy, especially for me. The Beatles missed by one on the title of their endearing song, "When I'm 64," although I must admit I forgot things just as much a year ago.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by DaddyO »

A have added the bolded item below to my articulation switching checklist:

Instrument correctly assigned to VST instance, midi port and channel
ExMap correctly assigned to instrument
VI Pro Matrix cell active and correct
PT tied to correct PPT
ExMap entry for Articulation exists
ExMap entry selected from list rather than accidently just named properly
ExMap keyswitches correct
PPT in question showing in Mutual Exclusion Group
PPT showing correctly in ExMap lane in Play
Playback passes test...or not

Everything working fine now. I just finished testing and reviewing all my wind and string Expression Maps by entering a series of whole notes in a test flow. One instrument for each of the four ExMaps involved is assigned the note series with a PT in the order of my VI Pro matrix. As it plays back I can then watch it "walk" through each cell, and troubleshoot until it works perfectly. This is much better than trying to figure things out ad hoc.

Thought I'd mention all this in case there's any other Dorico users who can learn from my mistakes.

I really appreciate this forum, and all of you who go out of your way to help those who need it.
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Re: ExMap Articulation Not Working - Help Needed

Post by dko22 »

DaddyO wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:42 pm

Based on the screenshot playback offset is not a setting. It appears to be a matter of nudging the PT in engraving?

And yes, forgetting is easy, especially for me. The Beatles missed by one on the title of their endearing song, "When I'm 64," although I must admit I forgot things just as much a year ago.
in the screenshot, the actual note is shown highlighted in orange and the nudging applies to the note and not the p.t. The idea is to ensure that Dorico immediately applies the new p.t and not with a delay (or possibly not at all). The Beatles comment is perhaps getting a little close to home.... :oops:

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