External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

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irecord2
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External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by irecord2 »

External FX ping with RME interfaces (I have a Fireface 800) is still not working.

This has been a known issue which goes back several versions and still has not been resolved despite the following undertaking in Sound on Sound Dec 2011 issue of Cubase Notes - Using Outboard Gear:

" it is possible for an interface to report negative latency, and Cubase's external FX can't cope with this"....

While there are a couple of workarounds suggested in this article, the author goes on to say:

"unfortunately this does not work on my system (Cubase fires the signal out , but the compensation remains set to zero), and still can't compensate for negative latency. I've mentioned this to Steinberg, who recognize that there's a bug, and have said they'll fix it in an update during the current product cycle".

This has been the thorn in my side with Cubase, as I rely on external FX with my hybrid setup.

Very very disappointing Steinberg. Any response welcome!

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by ninjafreddan »

irecord2 wrote: "unfortunately this does not work on my system (Cubase fires the signal out , but the compensation remains set to zero), and still can't compensate for negative latency. I've mentioned this to Steinberg, who recognize that there's a bug, and have said they'll fix it in an update during the current product cycle".

This has been the thorn in my side with Cubase, as I rely on external FX with my hybrid setup.

Very very disappointing Steinberg. Any response welcome!
Hi!

I'm quite surprised that you're having problems, that bug was fixed a long time ago, at least for me. What's your setup?

I've been using different RME soundcards for the last 15 years and remember having the External FX ping problem around 2006. The ping returned zero latency but I could make it work by phase inverting the outputs in Total Mixer, it didn't always work, but at least it did most of the time. Then as far as I remember RME released an update and the problem was gone, and has been since then. At the time I was using an RME HDSP PCI-card, then I changed to a Fireface 800, and didn't have any problems at all. I use External FX all the time when I mix and master music, sending drums to parallel compression and lead vocals to parallel distortion - even a one sample offset would ruin my mixes and External FX has been rock solid.
When I needed more I/O I sold the FF800 and bought an RME HDSPe RayDAT and now I use it together with a RME HDSPe MADI soundcard, creating a massive ASIO driver with four ADAT I/O, MADI I/O, SPDIF, AES-EBU and a stereo analogue out from the MADI soundcard.
And I'm using at least five or six different External FXs, two TC Reverb 4000, stereo and mono analogue processing chains, parallel stereo drum compression/distortion and two custom tweaked Dolby CAT22 processors for parallel vocal distortion. And it works like a charm, even in Cubase 8 PRO.

I use the latest RME drivers available on their homepage. Usually have a round trip latency of 1.58ms or so at 44.1kHz depending on which converters I'm using - Antelope Orion32 or Mytek 8x192.

I hope you can tweak your system to make it work again. Try the phase-invert trick!


The best of luck
Fred
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Cubase Pro 9.5, Wavelab 9.5, Nuendo 8.2, PT HD 12, ASUS P9X79 PRO, Intel Core i7-3930K Processor, 32Gb DDR RAM, UAD-2 QUAD (all plug-ins), PoCo 6000 (all plug-ins), RME HDSPe MADI, Dangerous Convert-8, Crookwood MultiDAD, DirectOut Andiamo 2XT, Avid Artist Control, Novation Remote SL61 and lots of funky outboard and analogue synths.

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by irecord2 »

Hi Fred, thanks for the reply.

I am using an RME Fireface 800 with an RME ADI-4 DD connected to the Fireface's ADAT I/O. The ADI-4 DD functions as an ADAT to AES/EBU or SPDIF converter. I have three effects units (Lexicon PCM91 and two TC Electronic M-ones) connected to the ADI-4 DD via SPDIF, so the signal paths are all digital. When I ping the external effects I can see the ping on the input metering of the effects instantaneously, but I get the return of the ping in Cubase FX return channels with a delay of about 1 second. Usually I get a compensation delay of 0ms registering, sometimes I get 100ms. I have tried inverting the phase in TotalMix as you suggested to no avail.

Peter

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by ninjafreddan »

irecord2 wrote:I have three effects units (Lexicon PCM91 and two TC Electronic M-ones) connected to the ADI-4 DD via SPDIF, so the signal paths are all digital. When I ping the external effects I can see the ping on the input metering of the effects instantaneously, but I get the return of the ping in Cubase FX return channels with a delay of about 1 second.
Okay, at least you're using effect processors/reverbs so the ping time isn't that important, I guess. But it should of course work properly.

Just as a test, I took away my External FXs and started over. No problems at all pinging two TC Reverb 4000 units hooked up on two analogue stereo lines (reverbs running at 96kHz internal sample rate).

I hope Steinberg and RME can sort it out for you.


Cheers
Fred
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

It's not working correctly here either. I am trying to do parallel compression on some drum tracks with an external compressor, and I am getting phasing. Cubase keeps reporting 0ms... I have heard this is RME's fault... I have heard it is Steinberg's fault. I don't really care who's fault it is... Steinberg, please talk to RME! Maybe if you work together, you guys can come up with a fix on it... very frustrating...

Ok... In the meantime this is what I did:

I used the "test generator" plugin to send a sine wave out, flip phase on the return from the outboard gear, and adjust the delay manually until I have silence... I'm feeling very annoyed that I have to do this... a very slow process that should be instant if hardware insert delay compensation was working correctly. PLEASE FIX THIS SOON.

Thanks,
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

No matter what latency or delay RME reports... it is irrelevant. Cubase sends out a ping signal - and Cubase ought to be able to calculate the adjustment based on when the ping signal returns. This is a problem with Cubase, not RME hardware.
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by sachizm »

Hi
I'm trying to set up external FX for the first time and getting major delay, testing with a drum loop everything sounds like double hits. Im moving the delay comp and doesnt seem to be getting any different. The measure effect loop button brings back 0 like stated above. Im using an RME 9632 with two extension boards. Any advise or other settings Im ignoring?

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

This has been broken for many years now. I hope they will make it a higher priority fix. Very frustrating.
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by sachizm »

Yes it is. Ive only had a small chance to mess with it as im busy mixing but i get delay style double time drums unless i drop the sample buffer to like 64 which is impracticle as i use a lot of vst instruments.

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

Still always reporting 0ms!

Is this EVER going to be fixed??? It has been broken for many versions now... I am working on a mix where I am in need of this feature. I went to try it - STILL BROKEN (8.5.20). Please Steinberg! Please fix this!!! How many more years is it going to take to fix this???

Sorry for being so angry, but it has been years and years... and to discover it's still broken... It just makes me feel really frustrated, and it's hard not to get angry that it has been ignored for so long.
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

Bounce... 5 years and counting I think (the Sound on Sound article came out in 2011?)...
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by peakae »

It kind of works here, but only on some. I have 3 compressors hooked up and 1 reports 1.68ms the other two report zero. Filling in the 1.68ms manually for those two works. I am suspecting the levels have something to do with it, but have not spend to much time on it.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

Yeah... Hopefully they will fix it completely some day. 5 years is a SERIOUSLY long time for a desireable feature to remain broken. Hopefully they fix it before I grow old and eventually retire from the music industry... :|
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by smartinuf »

I found this topic just as I was getting ready to try to get hardware inserts set up and didn't realize there was a problem. Makes me not even want to fool with it as it seems likely to end in frustration with more half-assed feature implementation issues, gets old after a while.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by peakae »

Strange today when mixing I tried the ping again, and it worked on all the hardware inserts.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by tlmauer3 »

I'm having this same issue with a Yamaha spx2000 effects processor. I have several pieces of outboard gear, and the latency ping is working on all of them except for this box. Which is really bizarre considering the business relationship Yamaha has with Steinberg. I've had this issue in both the analog and digital ins/outs of the box. It only works on a few of the presets, specifically those that are modulation related. But anything that has a delay or reverb either calculates as '0' or the maximum of '100'. I've tried adjusting the send and return levels and done about everything I can possibly think of. Very frustrating.

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by peakae »

Have you tried setting the external delay/reverb to dry ?
Then ping, and after it got the latency calculated, back to wet.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by tlmauer3 »

I'm not able to ping it with the reverb off unless I switch to a different effect. What I did try to do was '0' out all the settings and then ping it, which appears to have worked, even though the time calculated is far longer than it was for all my other outboard gear. The strange thing is all the other outboard gear calculates exactly the same (.98ms) while the spx2000 calculates 21.18ms. I I have yet to see if using any different reverbs, delays, modulations, or amp simulator effects from the box will yield different ping calculations, but that's what I was able to come up with just in case anybody else has been having this same problem.

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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

peakae wrote:Strange today when mixing I tried the ping again, and it worked on all the hardware inserts.
Maybe next time I'm in the studio I'll experiment with testing at different latencies. Maybe that has some affect on whether ping works or not.

The last few times I have attempted to use the feature though, it would only report 0ms. Very frustrating...
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by smartinuf »

toader wrote:
peakae wrote:Strange today when mixing I tried the ping again, and it worked on all the hardware inserts.
Maybe next time I'm in the studio I'll experiment with testing at different latencies. Maybe that has some affect on whether ping works or not.

The last few times I have attempted to use the feature though, it would only report 0ms. Very frustrating...
That would make sense in a way and could be the root of this whole thing, since I often switch latency settings for different projects, I'd hate to have to re-ping every time. If this is the case, seems like Steinberg should have noticed this and made the info more available.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by peakae »

Im always using a 128 sample buffer with ASIO guard set to max. Using the RME Raydat I get low enough latency to play/monitor and when not recording, enough room for mixing even heavy projects. What is strange to me is that I use the ping and get 0ms latency, and the next day when I load the exact same project/hardware plugin it works.
It has worked since and I'm in heaven right now, there is something a good 2bus hardware compressor does that I can't get from any plugin (the ones I have tried, to be fair).
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

I sometimes like to run external compressors - especially for drums... and that is where phase issues become very noticeable...

I just tried to ping my external hardware at various latencies... Cubase ALWAYS reports 0ms no matter what I do. I even tried just looping the input on my converters right back to the output - Cubase still reports 0ms. I tried bypassing all plugins in the entire project - Cubase still reports 0ms.

I wish so badly that they would fix this problem... it is so unbelievably frustrating... a long time ago, this feature used to work! It was one of the things I really loved about Cubase. When it stopped working, I figured a fix would be a few updates out - maybe a few months... It has been like 5 years... I just don't even know what to think anymore. I'm losing hope that Steinberg will ever fix this.
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by toader »

Ok - an issue here - I'm confused...

1) I tried using an external hardware plugin on a drum buss (cubase reports 0ms, so I leave it like that for now)
2) I export the drum buss and reimport into the project
3) I look at the snare track compared with the exported/imported drum buss file to see how the timing compares, and I notice that the drum buss export is slightly EARLY! Why is it early??? Shouldn't it be slightly LATE?

I'm confused... not sure why it's early...
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by Grim »

I believe you always get negative delay using digital outs/ins with a separate converter.

If you can connect to an analogue i/o of the interface you should get an accurate ping and it can correct but even then you shouldn't really trust it to be sample accurate for parallel processing.
The safest way to parallel process with a hybrid setup is to also route the dry out and back through the same converters.
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Re: External FX Ping with RME Interfaces Still Not Fixed

Post by peakae »

It certainly works with ADAT and a mix of ins and outs from different converters. I use the output of my mr816x to feed a compressor that goes to the input of a Motu 828mkII.
But them we could discuss if the ping latency should be measured in samples and not ms.
I do parallel compression with this setup, but the compressor has a wet/dry knob, that makes it easy and always in phase. I have heard that the external instruments/fx is on the todo list from a Steinberg employee, but what was around the time Cubase 7 came out. Anyhow with the major popularity of modular synths and the need to feed those with signals I hope what a remake of external instr./fx has moved up the todo list.
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