Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

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alexis
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Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by alexis »

... Are you guys worried about losing rights to on-line music sites?

I've been reading that places like bandcamp, last-fm, soundclick, youtube, and the ilk have in small print (in the "contract" we have to sign to have them host our songs for free) that although we retain "ownership", they are allowed to distribute, play, market, etc., and keep profits from that. Additionally, I read that some of these sites will even strip the ID that I guess we can put at the beginning of each track, and replace it with their own. This was in a recent Keyboard Mag, or maybe EM music, I can get the reference later if anyone needs it.

You guys that use sites like these to host your music - are you concerned that you may be unhappy later with the terms of the contract you "signed" to register/log in?

Thanks for your thoughts -
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

Proof that free hosting is rarely that..... there is always a snag. I'd be curious to see/hear if anyone on this forum has felt their online material was actually used as per these agreements by the hosting party... and to originators' financial detriment..... I am betting the sheer mass of volume of material may actually serve to protect the majority, in that they would only publish a tiny fraction of the posted material, I guess if your stuff was really that good, you'd probably cancel out and get your own site.

Just thinkin' outloud.....

Another thought too, hosting is pretty cheap these days, so that is a fairly affordable alternative that some may be overlooking.

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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

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NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:Proof that free hosting is rarely that..... there is always a snag. I'd be curious to see/hear if anyone on this forum has felt their online material was actually used as per these agreements by the hosting party... and to originators' financial detriment..... I am betting the sheer mass of volume of material may actually serve to protect the majority, in that they would only publish a tiny fraction of the posted material, I guess if your stuff was really that good, you'd probably cancel out and get your own site.
But would it be too late ... do they lurk in the shadows, ready to pounce on the one in a million things that are posted that actually have significant commercial potential? Would I have given up my financial security, and my family's for generations to come, when they take all my revenue from the next "Yesterday"? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:...Another thought too, hosting is pretty cheap these days, so that is a fairly affordable alternative that some may be overlooking.
It's a tradeoff though, between security and getting public exposure - more hits on those sites than my very own personal site, I'd guess ....

Like you, I wonder if there are any horror stories out there. If not, it would be hard to sort out whether it's because no songs have shown good commercial potential, or if the sites are just populated by really nice people ... :D
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

alexis wrote:
NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:Proof that free hosting is rarely that..... there is always a snag. I'd be curious to see/hear if anyone on this forum has felt their online material was actually used as per these agreements by the hosting party... and to originators' financial detriment..... I am betting the sheer mass of volume of material may actually serve to protect the majority, in that they would only publish a tiny fraction of the posted material, I guess if your stuff was really that good, you'd probably cancel out and get your own site.
But would it be too late ... do they lurk in the shadows, ready to pounce on the one in a million things that are posted that actually have significant commercial potential? Would I have given up my financial security, and my family's for generations to come, when they take all my revenue from the next "Yesterday"? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:...Another thought too, hosting is pretty cheap these days, so that is a fairly affordable alternative that some may be overlooking.
It's a tradeoff though, between security and getting public exposure - more hits on those sites than my very own personal site, I'd guess ....

Like you, I wonder if there are any horror stories out there. If not, it would be hard to sort out whether it's because no songs have shown good commercial potential, or if the sites are just populated by really nice people ... :D
Hi Alexis... Not sure about all the sites, but SoundClick will cancel the agreement and send you an email stating that they have relinquished all rights if you ask them to. When I signed up at Bandcamp (right after it started pretty much and after I cancelled at SoundClick) I don't believe the rights issue was nearly as intense, which is what lured me thee along with the higher bit rate downloads... that may have changed. You are correct, if you want exposure, it is harder to draw people to your own site, but these days, you can cross post to FaceBook, Twitter, etc... so you can redirect interest to some degree. Google crawls everything these days, so with a little self promotion, you may be able to go a long way.

Sadly, nothing is free anymore!

YouTube, is an excellent jumping off point also... not sure regarding their agreements however.

regards - Robin
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

alexis wrote:
NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:Proof that free hosting is rarely that..... there is always a snag. I'd be curious to see/hear if anyone on this forum has felt their online material was actually used as per these agreements by the hosting party... and to originators' financial detriment..... I am betting the sheer mass of volume of material may actually serve to protect the majority, in that they would only publish a tiny fraction of the posted material, I guess if your stuff was really that good, you'd probably cancel out and get your own site.
But would it be too late ... do they lurk in the shadows, ready to pounce on the one in a million things that are posted that actually have significant commercial potential? Would I have given up my financial security, and my family's for generations to come, when they take all my revenue from the next "Yesterday"? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The 'contracts' with these sites, so I've seen, will not take your revenue from anything. They may have the right to use the work themselves, but any revenue you make from it is yours ( and your publisher ). So you don't 'lose rights' per se.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Sherz »

I don't think it's so much a case of 'losing rights' but rather 'sharing' them... to some extent anyway.
alexis wrote:...ready to pounce on the one in a million things that are posted that actually have significant commercial potential?
I wonder if there is such a thing anymore? Given recent dramatic downward trends in music sales... I rather suspect there's very little interest from the industry in the the likes of soundclick etc as a source of commercially viable product.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

Sherz wrote:I don't think it's so much a case of 'losing rights' but rather 'sharing' them... to some extent anyway.
alexis wrote:...ready to pounce on the one in a million things that are posted that actually have significant commercial potential?
I wonder if there is such a thing anymore? Given recent dramatic downward trends in music sales... I rather suspect there's very little interest from the industry in the the likes of soundclick etc as a source of commercially viable product.
Indeed the industry tend to manufacture stuff in house from people grabbed from contacts they know, such as managers, talent spotters, etc
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by twilightsong »

Paul Woodlock wrote:
The 'contracts' with these sites, so I've seen, will not take your revenue from anything. They may have the right to use the work themselves, but any revenue you make from it is yours ( and your publisher ). So you don't 'lose rights' per se.
Right. I think the contractual language is really intended to indemnify them against various unforeseen circumstances, NOT so they can make money off your music
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

twilightsong wrote:
Paul Woodlock wrote:
The 'contracts' with these sites, so I've seen, will not take your revenue from anything. They may have the right to use the work themselves, but any revenue you make from it is yours ( and your publisher ). So you don't 'lose rights' per se.
Right. I think the contractual language is really intended to indemnify them against various unforeseen circumstances, NOT so they can make money off your music
Indeed.

Peeps worry too much.

IMO just make art and enjoy letting as many peeps as you can enjoy it gratis. Most aren't gonna make rich from it anyway. Especially now the heyday of capitalist exploitation of art is over. When Paul McCartney wrote Yesterday, capitalism was not even a million miles close to his thoughts. He just made art for art's sake.

Mick Jagger summed it up in a recent interview when he explained that through history most of the time artists weren't paid for their art. He was just lucky to have been in that short period when they were.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by alexis »

Points well taken, but Randy Chertkow and Jason Feehan, authors of the article, "Avoiding Gotchas When Putting Your Music on the Web", EM 11-10, make it sound far from innocuous:

1) Some terms and conditions state the site gets exclusive rights, or ask you to grant the site irrevocable or perpetual licenses to your music that you upload, either of which can cripple your ability to license your music to others later if the opportunity arises.

2) Some licenses require you to waive any performance right fees you may be entitled to from performance rights organizations. Some of these sites' user licenses require rights to your "trademarks, trade names, image, or likeness".

3) These authors report that some of these sites have been known to take MP3 uploads and overwrite the ID3 tags - the identifying information that MP3 players use - and replace it with their own info. Some even replace the copyright fields, confusing fans and making proof of copyright very difficult down the road.

If someone were starting out with a career as a performer and writer in mind, it seems that putting their work on sites like last.fm, bandcamp, MySpace, Facebook, ReverbNation, and others (all of those were specifically named in the article) might not be the smartest thing. Maybe those corporate guys are just putting clauses in to protect themselves, as has been suggested on this thread earlier, but if the opportunity came up for them to make significant money on songs they host, I bet they'd be there in a New York minute.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by HowlingUlf »

How many stories so far have we heard about SoundClick et al ripping anybody off?

As a goodwill stunt it would be suicide for them?
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by DaveKeir »

No I'm not "worried" if only because there are more important things(for me at any rate) musically to be concerned about. I'll accept in principle there's a risk of being ripped off - but I'm not at all sure if I'd be more flattered or affronted. :|

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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by HowlingUlf »

soundclick won't rip you off but somebody with an internet connection ... could!
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

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Steve Fogal wrote:I've never put my music up on these sites or anywhere really, therefore I've never been in a position to be ripped off ...from that. Though in the 80's I had made & sold Jam Tapes through guitar mags (for lead guitar practicing) and heard what sounded like one of my backing tracks on a local radio ad. Exact same chord progression, exact sound of my Kramer guitar through a Digitech, exact same sound as my Roland R-5 HRC drum machine. If this was indeed my recorded music, I tend to think that their use of it in this case wasn't any significant revenue boost. At about $10 each that I made off each sale, I would venture to guess that I made more off my music than they did off my music. I would also venture to guess I made more off my backing tracks than many who have their songs up on these various sites :) While it was a lot of fun coming up with chord progressions & recording the Jam Tapes, it was entire a potential business venture...I made some money for a while, not a lot profit, but covered all my expences and then some for my efforts at that time.

But back on topic, if you copy write your music 1st, and within your description of your music when putting it up that it's copy written material and no part of it may be used without your permission, doesn't that help for these sites, when and if the time should come?

Also I thought I heard a handful of years ago, by some Cubaser...I think it was the guy who lived in Nashville? He was on staff at a music company as a song writer and I think one of the songs he helped/co-wrote was used by Leanne Rhyms? Anyway, there was some talk about the record company (after they snagged the music) made a request that the music be taken off all of these kinds of sites?
So when it REALLY counts when say a record company is involved, I would think that the record company would take over in these legal music matters regarding any rights taken away from the originator...?
OT on my own post, ( :shock: ), but was that J. Kennedy, I think I remember that, our local boy who made it big! Written on Cubase too!
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by HowlingUlf »

I'm thinking even s l o w e r than usual because my brain is replaced by a flu blob.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

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Steve Fogal wrote:
Yeah, that was him...what ever became of him? I do recall liking his songs..and of course his extensive use of those confounded organs! :lol:
I talked to John not too long ago. Still writing tons of songs, and he's had a few recorded (incl Faith Hill) but only the Rhimes tune made it to an album. He's got a publishing deal with one of the majors.

I believe he actually co-wrote the tune. I have the album, it did fairly well, about 600,000 US sold. But the neatest thing was they made a video of it -- I caught it once but I don't recall the name of the song.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by twilightsong »

Oh, it's "I Probably Wouldn't Be This Way" and there IS a Youtube of it
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Lenny Lee »

I'll have to give that a listen. John was pretty fluent in a handful of styles, Rock, pop, country.....
and he produces some great sounding mixes on his own. He did post songs here for critique,
so I guess he thought we had something to offer.
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Guest »

nothing is free anymore!
Except for music...which is because we make it free.

Apparently our collective sense of what is right and wrong isn't worthy of adherence, or we all agree that music is nothing special, and musicians are to be avoided at all costs by decent, hardworking folk.

Unfortunately, we also see that the public doesn't really much care for quality music.

Let them eat cake.

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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

Lord Snarebottom wrote:
nothing is free anymore!
Except for music...which is because we make it free.

Apparently our collective sense of what is right and wrong isn't worthy of adherence, or we all agree that music is nothing special, and musicians are to be avoided at all costs by decent, hardworking folk.

Unfortunately, we also see that the public doesn't really much care for quality music.

Let them eat cake.
Humbug!

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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

Lord Snarebottom wrote:
nothing is free anymore!
Except for music...which is because we make it free.

Apparently our collective sense of what is right and wrong isn't worthy of adherence, or we all agree that music is nothing special, and musicians are to be avoided at all costs by decent, hardworking folk.

Unfortunately, we also see that the public doesn't really much care for quality music.

Let them eat cake.

Aww come on mate :)

What's 'quality music' is so subjective you surely cannot be serious with that claim?


Look, I think McDonald's food is close to rotting faecal matter but someone else might think it tastes wonderful. Who am I to say what is quality and what is not?

And talking of cake .. I'm a savoury man. Don't like sweet stuff. You guys are welcome to cake. You can certainly have my portion. I'll have your portion of chorizo in return ;)
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by JohnOnKeyz »

Lord Snarebottom wrote:Let them eat cake.
Can't do any more harm than it already has. They've already gotten diabetes. :|
John
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

JohnOnKeyz wrote:
Lord Snarebottom wrote:Let them eat cake.
Can't do any more harm than it already has. They've already gotten diabetes. :|
Image
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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Guest »

There are 3 types of copyright:

c) Musical & Literary works

and

p) Sound recording

There are also rights to distribution, which is what the internet is talking about however this does not negate copyright in any form but rather it is a license given to disseminate for example a sound recording.

As a writer, you must keep any and all drafts, versions etc, eg cubase projects since if there is a legal issue, it must be demonstrable who actually wrote a piece of music, even if it is based on someone elses' work.

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Re: Are you guys worried about losing rights to online music...

Post by Paul Woodlock »

Most people never write anything worth stealing. Myself included.

If anyone does write anything worthy of commercial exploitation then the capitalists won't completely steal it, they'll sign you up for an exploitative deal in the hope that they can profit from all your further creative works.

The days of "sex, drugs and rock n roll" funded by the free flow of publishing/record royalties are over. Mick Jagger and others of his ilk were lucky to be in the right era, and have the right talent, at the right time.

IOW stop worrying and just make music for fun. And give it away to people who are appreciate to listen to it. This is 'art' not a soulless commercial commodity. If you wanna make money then mine precious metals or something.

We are all middle aged 'never beens' here. Deal with it and just have fun. :)
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