Midi Jitter during playback !!!

For users of legacy Steinberg Cubase software
Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

did the same test with Studio One on the same hardware with the same ASIO driver and the export and the recordings of the audio both nulled.
In Studio One even the export can be nulled against the VSTi after you shift the sample -0.06ms
With Cubase that's impossible because the shifts in playback are totally random.
So it has nothing to do with midi clocks or other HW.
The highlighted sentence seems to contradict the previous one.
Also I'm failing to see where in the real world of work the example you give would adversely affect any resulting recordings, or indeed, any prodessing.
I'm also unconvinced that the nature of the GA drum synth engine is not being recorded twice and convolutions and sample placements aren't changing. What are the results if you try it with Halion drums?

In your second example instead of recording twice from GA, record just once and then simply copy that track to the second audio track. I reckon you'd find a null there. Which would point to a convolution effect from GA.
Look up jitter. Clocks and hardware are what both cause it. Not software.
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

Conman wrote:The highlighted sentence seems to contradict the previous one.
The highlighted sentence tells us Studio One's realtime playback of midi data and export are consistent unlike Cubase.
Conman wrote: Also I'm failing to see where in the real world of work the example you give would adversely affect any resulting recordings, or indeed, any prodessing.
Noticeable phase cancellation may occur randomly in the higher frequency range (due to the relatively small shifts) when layering a VSTi over audio material. Again, when exporting, timing is spot on.

Another situation is when one would like to record the output of the realtime playback to an alternative source. Every recording of the realtime signal is slightly different and never as it is due to inconsistent timing. The solution is pretty simple of course, first make an export before recording to an alternative source.
Conman wrote: I'm also unconvinced that the nature of the GA drum synth engine is not being recorded twice and convolutions
and sample placements aren't changing. What are the results if you try it with Halion drums?
I don't have Halion. Did the test with Battery in both hosts and the result is the same
Conman wrote: In your second example instead of recording twice from GA, record just once and then simply copy that track to the second audio track. I reckon you'd find a null there. Which would point to a convolution effect from GA.
The second test shows the realtime playback of Cubase isn't consistent. Recording it twice is essential to demonstrate that. Nulling a duplicate of the recording would be pointless to prove anything related to inconsistent realtime playback of midi in Cubase.
No offence, but due to the fact you ask me to do a NULL test with a duplicate of the recorded signal indicates you really don't have a clue what the purpose of the tests are and what the issue is here.

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

You don't have the Halion One that came free with Cubase? You have rather less than a clue here.
I think you're making it up. I don't need to waste any more time here. Have a nice moan.
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"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

Conman wrote:You don't have the Halion One that came free with Cubase? You have rather less than a clue here.
I think you're making it up. I don't need to waste any more time here. Have a nice moan.
Cats moan :lol:

arianboghi
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by arianboghi »

niles wrote:
Conman wrote:is ambiguous. As a realtime recording (ie: to audio) is, to my present understanding of this sentence, the same as exporting.
That's the point!
Take some time to do a very simple test and you'll notice there is something "shifty" going on between exporting or recording the playback signal.

- New project
- Add Groove Agent One (Preset Pop Kit) + midi track
- Play a bar of rimshots (c#1)
- Export it 2 times
- Import the 2 export files and phase reverse 1 of them
- mute the Groove Agent
- Hit play
- Result = NULL

- Delete the audio files
- Unmute Groove Agent
- Record the output of Groove Agent to the 1st audio track
- Stop
- Now record the output of Groove Agent the 2nd audio track
- Phase inverse 1 of the audio tracks
- Hit play
- Result = not NULL

I did the same test with Studio One on the same hardware with the same ASIO driver and the export and the recordings of the audio both nulled.
In Studio One even the export can be nulled against the VSTi after you shift the sample -0.06ms
With Cubase that's impossible because the shifts in playback are totally random.
So it has nothing to do with midi clocks or other HW.

Whether it's a showstopper or not is not the questions. Different styles, different needs.
That's exactly my point. I read somewhere that midi driver within win xp causing the jitter, but Im wondering why there is no randomization in other DAWs?
Has anyone test this in other OS? win 7 or Vista?

Lasso
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Lasso »

Oh - I'm not alone.

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... =19&t=4618

There's definately something going on that's causing drift in midi timing. Random it seems?!
2015 MBP Retina @ 2,8 gHz, High Sierra, Cubase Pro 10, WaveLab Pro 9, UAD Apollo Twin, UAD Apollo Satellite Quad TB

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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

arianboghi wrote:That's exactly my point. I read somewhere that midi driver within win xp causing the jitter, but Im wondering why there is no randomization in other DAWs?
It could be the midi driver or systemclock, but that still doesn't explain why another sequencer on the same system is able to be rock solid in midi timing (corrects possible jitter) and the other is randomly shifting in time indeed.

I did a simple test in Cubase and Studio One where I recorded the midi output of midi channel 01 to the input of midi channel 02 by connecting a midi cable from my RME's midi out to the midi in.

The result is as we expected. Studio One's output is spot on and Cubase's output randomly drifts from 0.0.0.0 to 0.0.0.2 bars (see attachment).

It doesn't matter on what tempo you work. The result stays the same. Of course anyone working on lower tempo (from 100 bpm down) will notice these artifacts in real time playback easier then someone working on higher tempo. (edit: I did a test on higher tempo and the higher the tempo the greater the shifts in time)

Maybe a Steinberg dev could chime in to explaine the how's, what's and why's!?
Attachments
Cubase_Midi_Loop_Timestamp_DM.jpg
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Cubase_Midi_Loop.jpg
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Studio_One_Midi_Loop.jpg
(189.07 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

As the devs are not always or slow responding here it may be useful to ask at the Studio One forum to ask how their midi is handled. They may automatically render the midi somehow to audio (autofreeze?) either at recording or it is automatically fed back on rendering to both tracks thereby making it seems as though one is hearing a midi and an audio track but in reality just two audio tracks. Not saying it is just that it might be.

I suggested using Halion One drums to test as if this sounded normal then the problem could indicate that the issue is with GA and not the whole Cubase midi engine.
Saying that, over the years Cubase has, on the PC, had several problems with the midi timing leading to the introduction of mid time stamping and it has always had priority settings which may, or may not, improve the midi / audio match on phase switching. There may still be anomalies there but I don't think they should be called jitter which is a different beast altogether.

Jitter can be present in any number of the components used but Cubase alone could not be reliably blamed for it's appearance. However Cubase could be missing some tricks in the correction of any midi jitter introduced by other components.

Ah!?
I did a simple test in Cubase and Studio One where I recorded the midi output of midi channel 01 to the input of midi channel 02 by connecting a midi cable from my RME's midi out to the midi in
The OPs original test was to render a midi track to audio and then null test but still it seems valid.
Were you using GA1? What happens if you use Halion One's drums?

I'm going this way because if we are to establish this anomaly any Steinberg devs need to know where the problem lies. As the original post could point it to quite a number of places.
If they can blame something else, like any company, they probably will.
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Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

Ok. Tested Halion Sonic SE against itself: Copy of midi drums to another track. Properly nulled.
Copy of midi drums to audio. Properly nulled.

Copy of GA produces noticeable phasing both to a midi copy and to an audio copy and negative null phase.

Therefore the problem is with GA and I'm not sure but I think that may be logged as a problem but it could be down to how GA handles it's samples and if there are random sample hits to introduce "realism" to the resulting tracks. Now, me being me and knowing my drums and drum machines, somehow that gives me no surprises as no two "performances" would generate the same output.
Would also explain how other DAWs would not return the same results. But it wouldn't surprise me if someone came up with different results. :mrgreen:
If I get time I'll test Halion Sonic again for audio to see if it's not a "one-time" thing as somehow I would expect, seeing GAs results, that there would be some phasing present.
Also, in view of Nile's report I forgot to look at the Key editor to see if any notes had physically moved on the grid or whether the phasing I heard was sample displacement rather than midi data although to my ears it sounded like just the samples.
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

Steinberg reps, Chris, JHP, crohde, maybe any of you could shed some light on our findings and what's causing them.

TS-12
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by TS-12 »

Conman wrote:Midi jitter is a hardware issue.
more like Windows 7 issue.

in OSX, Atari, Linux, and win XP and older windows, midi out is fine with any interface.
but in win7, no matter what interface you use, even if you go directly with usb if you device has it ther will be very noticeable variation in timing coming out from win7 machine to your hardware if you have more than about 3 tracks going out.
Win7 64bit/i7-920/8GB RAM/ASUS P6T/e-GeForce 7200GS
-Cubase / PreSonus StudoLive 16.4.2
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Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

niles wrote:
Conman wrote:is ambiguous. As a realtime recording (ie: to audio) is, to my present understanding of this sentence, the same as exporting.
That's the point!
Take some time to do a very simple test and you'll notice there is something "shifty" going on between exporting or recording the playback signal.

- New project
- Add Groove Agent One (Preset Pop Kit) + midi track
- Play a bar of rimshots (c#1)
- Export it 2 times
- Import the 2 export files and phase reverse 1 of them
- mute the Groove Agent
- Hit play
- Result = NULL

- Delete the audio files
- Unmute Groove Agent
- Record the output of Groove Agent to the 1st audio track
- Stop
- Now record the output of Groove Agent the 2nd audio track
- Phase inverse 1 of the audio tracks
- Hit play
- Result = not NULL

I did the same test with Studio One on the same hardware with the same ASIO driver and the export and the recordings of the audio both nulled.
In Studio One even the export can be nulled against the VSTi after you shift the sample -0.06ms
With Cubase that's impossible because the shifts in playback are totally random.
So it has nothing to do with midi clocks or other HW.

Whether it's a showstopper or not is not the questions. Different styles, different needs.

I'd expect this. GA is a synth and as such each hit would, and I would expect it to, be slightly different each time it is played back. This is not jitter. It is convolution. Just like a normal synth using string or other samples or synth egnerations.
"Different styles, different needs" ? Are the goalposts being moved now?

Sure, this might interfere with some uses but only very rarely and not the usual uses which a DAW should be put to at present. If more users find more uses and it does need to be more exact I'm not at all sure that it could be done easily at present.
If it holds ops up then it's fairly easy, as you have illustrated, thanks, to do things another way and get the same result.
No good banging your head on the same nail if a hammer will do the job with less pain. :mrgreen:

Funny, I've just been in a thread about humanising the drums where this amount of precision seems not to be the desired object.
The only time I need any layering is with hardware drumkits played live, rarely on recording as there are several ways to get the same effect without stretching the limits of the instruments used.
And I have to say again (and again) don't call it jitter. Jitter is a hardware issue and will not be addressed by any sofware devs. Something else might but jitter in this sense is another fashionable wrong term for convolution.

Also the jitter is induced by the computer itself as the midi packages for the two generations of GA would trigger it at different times.
You could try setting your Priority towards midi rather than audio which may improve the timing correction.
Last edited by Conman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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krisp
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by krisp »

Conman wrote: I'd expect this. GA is a synth and as such each hit would, and I would expect it to, be slightly different each time it is played back. This is not jitter. It is convolution. Just like a normal synth using string or other samples or synth egnerations.
Conman wrote:And I have to say again (and again) don't call it jitter. Jitter is a hardware issue and will not be addressed by any sofware devs. Something else might but jitter in this sense is another fashionable wrong term for convolution.
The clueless kitty is spamming/trolling as usual. Why do you have to display your utter lack of knowledge again and again? OCD, or what?. Convolution, as a mathematical concept, have nothing to do with the OP's problems. And if you think I'm wrong then please, enlighten me: what is convolution?

And jitter doesn't have to be a hardware issue. Educate yourself, please!

Kris.

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

krisp wrote:
Conman wrote: I'd expect this. GA is a synth and as such each hit would, and I would expect it to, be slightly different each time it is played back. This is not jitter. It is convolution. Just like a normal synth using string or other samples or synth egnerations.
Conman wrote:And I have to say again (and again) don't call it jitter. Jitter is a hardware issue and will not be addressed by any sofware devs. Something else might but jitter in this sense is another fashionable wrong term for convolution.
The clueless kitty is spamming/trolling as usual. Why do you have to display your utter lack of knowledge again and again? OCD, or what?. Convolution, as a mathematical concept, have nothing to do with the OP's problems. And if you think I'm wrong then please, enlighten me: what is convolution?

And jitter doesn't have to be a hardware issue. Educate yourself, please!

Kris.

No. You tell me smartass. I will wait for your explanation for a couple of years.
I don't pointlessly comment like you do to anyone else's posts. Explain yourself sensibly and professionally or butt out. Idiot.
At least the other posters are willing to be coherent and actually provide reasons for their thinking and allow me mine even if we don't agree. I'm not a yes man or a + one man or a troll and I don't have to insult others to explain myself.
I left that kiddies playground a while ago.
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dsb_wizzard
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by dsb_wizzard »

TS-12 wrote:
Conman wrote:Midi jitter is a hardware issue.
more like Windows 7 issue.

in OSX, Atari, Linux, and win XP and older windows, midi out is fine with any interface.
but in win7, no matter what interface you use, even if you go directly with usb if you device has it ther will be very noticeable variation in timing coming out from win7 machine to your hardware if you have more than about 3 tracks going out.
This is not true. I can confirm this bug on my XP machine and on my MBP as well.

Some time ago i investigated this problem and could nail it down at least on my machines that, if you compare the midi part against the exported audio in a null test, the midi slips out of time 1 sample back and forth! you can easily check if you switch your time line to "Samples" and then move the exported audio back and forth by using your mouse wheel to change the start point of the audio part in the info line above. I experienced this behavior @44.1kHz. Never checked 48kHz or higher...
Win 7 Pro SP1, RME HDSP 9632, UAD2-Solo
MBP 15" Unibody (late 2008), 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, Mac OS 10.6.8, TC Konnekt 24D
Cubase 6.0.6, Logic Pro 9.1.7

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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

krisp wrote:The clueless kitty is spamming/trolling as usual.
Ola Kris, just hit Image to mute the unwanted track ;)

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

dsb_wizzard wrote:
TS-12 wrote:
Conman wrote:Midi jitter is a hardware issue.
more like Windows 7 issue.

in OSX, Atari, Linux, and win XP and older windows, midi out is fine with any interface.
but in win7, no matter what interface you use, even if you go directly with usb if you device has it ther will be very noticeable variation in timing coming out from win7 machine to your hardware if you have more than about 3 tracks going out.
This is not true. I can confirm this bug on my XP machine and on my MBP as well.

Some time ago i investigated this problem and could nail it down at least on my machines that, if you compare the midi part against the exported audio in a null test, the midi slips out of time 1 sample back and forth! you can easily check if you switch your time line to "Samples" and then move the exported audio back and forth by using your mouse wheel to change the start point of the audio part in the info line above. I experienced this behavior @44.1kHz. Never checked 48kHz or higher...
Also depends on the soundcard being used (which can have jitter inherent as it's hardware). I see now, besides the goalposts being moved slightly, that the game has changed from this being a Cubase problem to a Windows problem.

What you could try besides different sample rates is to increase the soundcard buffers and do the null tests again to see if it tightens up any. Differences in the midi timing depend on what arrives in each buffer cycle and (depending on clocking quality) when. The more you get in each cycle the more chance they have of closer timing. The latency will be horrendous so remember to change it back to your normal inputting buffer rate.

Since the excellent Atari and, I think, the early Apple machines (which both used the same Motorola chips) there has always been great difficulty apparently getting any version of Windows midi timing right.

Is this "jitter" noticeable without nulling? ie: On normal playback.
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dsb_wizzard
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by dsb_wizzard »

Conman wrote: Also depends on the soundcard being used (which can have jitter inherent as it's hardware). I see now, besides the goalposts being moved slightly, that the game has changed from this being a Cubase problem to a Windows problem.
How can you tell? As I wrote I can confirm on OS X as well.
What I've checked by now:

Win XP, RME9632 (see specs), C6 (32bit), different buffer settings: fail
Win 7 (64Bit), C6 (32bit), RME9632, different buffer settings: fail
OS X (my Macbook Pro), C6 (32bit), TC Konnekt 24D, different buffer settings: fail
OS X (my Macbook Pro), C6 (32bit), buit in audio device: fail

So I would not say it's a Windows thing. Tomorrow I will check several iMacs and see what happens there. As far as I can remember this behavior didn't occur on SX3, it began with C4.
Conman wrote: Is this "jitter" noticeable without nulling? ie: On normal playback.
For my needs I only notice when it comes to layering drums as the highs and mids sound different every hit. See:
ryancokee wrote:BUMP! This is horrible, this causes comb filtering.
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Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

Hm, so it also seems an OSX problem. I presume that must be with the newer Macs. As far as friends using Macs were concerned problems with Windows were apparently not present on Macs. But it could have been one of those "Mac v.PC" comments and not exactly true.
But it still seems to be a Windows problem as well as an OSX problem so my comment stands.

I would layer the drums as Audio or put two samples per pad if possible or layer using the same (snare) variations on two or more different pads.
But I would still not expect complete synchronisation there (in GA unconverted to audio) either but you may be lucky.

When layering the object usually is to get an interesting texture from the kit which may well involve a little thickening, chorusing or distortion here or there for character.
On bare drums this may at times sound odd but, like real drums, when the other instruments are laid on top those little sound details (some would say imperfections and you'd be surprised how many howls, zings and fluffs happen on a real kit) are masked and the imperfections actually add something.
Also recording you can get bogged down with details that don't really matter. I still sometimes do myself. It's like the recording product, the music, is in a giant fishbowl and every mistake or nuance can seem as big as the planet. I think this can be one of those cases.
Cubase is not a scientific test-bed. It is, after all, just another way of recording music. Music isn't a science. It's an art.

PS: Try recording two REAL drummers doing the same part and tell me what sort of comb-filtering they produce. :mrgreen:
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popmann
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by popmann »

Ok, the implication that cubase's midi timing, good or bad, has anything to do with the hardware used doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Are you really suggesting that the crystal clock of the converters (interface) is so unstable that cubase using it as a reference for its midi timing can't keep up? Do you know how bad that clock would have to be. Midi has, what, 1/50th of the timing of a 44.1 clock?

Midi timing inside an application (not addressing external apps or midi sound sources) is a code thing-either cubase or the VI being used. Nuendo2 had some of the most truly hideous midi timing I've ever experienced. That said, cubase 4 and now 6 have been relatively stable for me.

I've not run the test here...and frankly, could point to GA1, which...well, I just don't care. Not sure who uses that...however, I ran a test recently to prove a different point to a friend.

Played a track live (clav so it would have some nice transients)-I simultaneously recorded the audio and midi. Then I rerecorded the audio of the midi track. Then I did a third bounce offline. The a forth and fifth in real time but with several reverence and t-racks issues (latency compensation inducing plugs) on OTHER tracks in the project.

Points proved:
C6's ADC worked 100%
And my point I was actually making-NOTHING replicated the live audio.

Questionable thing:
While all Three real time bounces nulled, and the two offline nulled to each other, they did NOT null between real time and offline. This could very well be due to Scarbee's K4 scripting being "timing sensitive" and offline does mess with time. Like if it were "don't play the same variation within 100ms of each other", bouncing offline could throw that kind of scripting off. I've also found that bfd2 doesn't bounce properly offline all the time, so I just DON'T...real time saves time in the long run because it's always what you hear.

Anyway...the thing I was trying to prove, and did? You can LOOK at the audio versus the midi rendered to audio and see--some hits in the midi are early, some late. I was making the point that you should be recording audio rather than midi for anything you can play with your ten fingers. Midi, in this day and age should be for programming things you can't play...drums, horns, strings-things more about programming than playing. The side effect I learned was that cubase 6 on win7x64 is as good as you can ask from a midi sequencer in being consistent in playback timing.

Fwiw, c2quad, 8gb, nvidia mobo chipset, motu 5x5, echogina3g. Kontakt 4--don't rembrandt the last update I did, maybe with Alicia's Keys 1.2? I remember 4.1 because it enabled the background loading...I tend to not update unless there's an issue or worthwhile feature...still on c6.0.

Anyway...try your test with a third party sampler. See if you still have the issue. If not, it's likely ga1...what are you using in studio one and protools? I'm really picky about midi timing. C4&6, I've had no real issues, save offline bouncing...which I resolve by getting a cup of coffee while it bounces in real time!

dr
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by dr »

Conman wrote:Also the main reply here may be useful as Pro-tools seems not entirely free of jitter:
http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_f ... ic.php?t=7
conman - with almost every post on here you seem to reveal yourself as having no understanding of what it is you're pretending to be an expert in.

in this thread you've gone from:

there's no problem with cubase

to

it's a hardware problem

to

it's a system specific windows problem

to

confusing midi jitter with jitter in digital audio clocking

to

it's convolution

back to

it's not a problem (for you?)

to

the problem is with GA

back to

it's hardware

to

the problem is in with non-motorola chips

to

it's a windows AND osx problem

to

it's a desirable feature

I've noticed your random uninformed posts spread thickly around this forum. I know you're 'probably' only trying to help but you really need to STFU. It's like trying to read a book with somebody scribbling sh*t over the page whilst you're reading. . . . worse still, somebody might read your posts and actually think your random utterances are fact.

sorry I have to be so personal but I suspect that subtlety isn't in your dictionary.

Conman
Senior Member
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:31 am

Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

Help! Who let the chimps out? :mrgreen:
The chimps keep commenting on nothing but others' posts. You have nothing to say about the subject. These trolls that follow people about with inane uninformed comments are starting to clutter the forum.

It seems I'm not allowed to discuss problems and try to resolve them in anything like a professional way but to browbeat Steinberg. Sorry, I don't play those schoolkid games.
If you haven't got any idea about the subject then butt out back to the bedroom, kid.
I'm talking about BASICS here. If you don't understand or can explain why I'm so wrong in a clear and professional way then you've got to be trolling.

Jitter isn't a Cubase problem.
Jitter is a hardware problem.
Midi has always been hard to implement on Windows.
Midi takes time (latency) to travel around a computer circuit and travels in things called "packets".All these things I write about and they are all documented and searchable.

I am by no means the expert you say I think I am and you think you are. I never said I was an expert. I just bring stuff to the table to consider and discuss. Which I do without denigrating others.

What I'm saying here is that the OP and the title is wrong. BUT. He does have a problem. What we have to establish is that the problem is with GA and whether it can be fixed by Steinberg or whether the OP needs to change work practise in some way.
My take is that (even sampling) synths like GA generate sounds unevenly and so nulling would rarely take place.
My second take is that a better way to get nulling would be to record two tracks of audio.
And. Double tracking, stacking and / or double sampling is sometimes not easy.

My background: Cubase 20 years, drums, 31 years, engineering 15 years.
Consider yourself told off by a guy who never stops learning but is used listening to fascists who stopped learning long ago. Dr. Chimp.

PS: Apologies to all and thank you popmann for your good post.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

chase
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Posts: 367
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:25 pm
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by chase »

Conman wrote:GA is a synth and as such each hit would, and I would expect it to, be slightly different each time it is played back. This is not jitter. It is convolution.
Convolution (like multiplication and addition) produces the same result every time. A (straight) convolution reverb ought therefore to produce the same reverb every time - though I believe there are convolution reverbs that employ extra procedures to deliberately introduce some variation/randomisation(?). In (digital) audio, convolution isn't confined to reverb, but unless there's another process introducing variation, the results of repeated applications of convolution (in any guise) must always be the same.

IMHO, it's thus confusing/misleading to say variation is caused by convolution if what's meant is that another process is acting in conjunction with the convolution to cause the variation (deliberate or otherwise).

Convolution, per se, can't cause two MIDI playbacks to be different.

Guest

Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

popmann wrote:Are you really suggesting that the crystal clock of the converters (interface) is so unstable that cubase using it as a reference for its midi timing can't keep up? Do you know how bad that clock would have to be,
I Don't know who this question is directed to, but I'm suggesting nothing. I only share my findings. Like I said earlier, for most users this isn't a showstopper. But I just find it remarkable one sequencer is spot on and the other not, on exact the same system.
popmann wrote: I've not run the test here...and frankly, could point to GA1, which...well, I just don't care. Not sure who uses that...however, I ran a test recently to prove a different point to a friend.
FWIW I did the same test with Battery, Kontakt and Sampletank (all with a single layer sample) and the result is the same.
Random shifts in time when playback is recorded in real time. I did use GA1 simply because anyone using Cubase could reproduce the test. To exclude any specific VSTi or Asio problems I directly recorded the midi out to midi in too in different sequencers, again on exact the same system, the result is in this post.
popmann wrote: I've had no real issues, save offline bouncing...which I resolve by getting a cup of coffee while it bounces in real time!
Please note, these test are not done by bouncing in real time but recording the playback directly from a group.
E.g. record the audio in two independent takes from the same VSTi with a single layer sample and all effects and variables in volume and filters turned off. When you null them against eachother, they are slightly different every recorded instance. While different exports null out.
Remarkable is that when I do the exact same test in another sequencer (Studio One) on exact the same system with the same VSTi (Battery), the independent recording from the playback nulls out. So on my system Cubase isn't consistent in realtime playback and another sequencer is. My question is, what could that be?

I would love to know if your system acts different when you record the playback in real time. Because when that's the case, it could have something to do with our setup and maybe narrows it down.

Conman
Senior Member
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:31 am

Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

chase wrote:
Conman wrote:GA is a synth and as such each hit would, and I would expect it to, be slightly different each time it is played back. This is not jitter. It is convolution.
Convolution (like multiplication and addition) produces the same result every time. A (straight) convolution reverb ought therefore to produce the same reverb every time - though I believe there are convolution reverbs that employ extra procedures to deliberately introduce some variation/randomisation(?). In (digital) audio, convolution isn't confined to reverb, but unless there's another process introducing variation, the results of repeated applications of convolution (in any guise) must always be the same.

IMHO, it's thus confusing/misleading to say variation is caused by convolution if what's meant is that another process is acting in conjunction with the convolution to cause the variation (deliberate or otherwise).

Convolution, per se, can't cause two MIDI playbacks to be different.

Convoluted = highly complex or intricate and occasionally devious.
You are right mathematically but we aren't talking maths we're talking synth (and reverb) terms for sound reproduction. Convolution in these terms serves to make the sound interesting ie: varied. And when a sound varies to find two instances the same would be rare.
To my ears GA sounds decent enough for me, a drummer to ue. This means that the sounds aren't boring me to death yet, which means there is some "interest" in there. Some variation must be happening or I'd spot it and not use it.

On nulling. Logic 8 (Apple) seems/ed to have it. Some suggestions are to change the pan law.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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